Thread: Act submission points

^ The basis of my submission was to radically simplify the "information regime" around fitearms by focussing on the "fit and proper person" approach, and a non statutory framework arround the whole firearms public safety thing. The use of paperwork such as the #43 is simply a vain effort by police to collect information that they hope might turn into intelligence - it doesnt work. I dont hold any hope of chanhing the narrative as my suggested approach wont cut it politically but I had to try . . .

Originally Posted by gimp

currently it is difficult to send firearms via courier/postal service from one private individual to another. an informal system of shipping dealer-to-dealer has arisen to get around this, but it is still inconvenient, dealers charge arbitrary amounts, and even though the firearm is being dropped off and picked up in person by a license holder, the dealers require S43A forms to facilitate the transaction


Does anyone have a neat way of suggesting a policy solution to this?

Sighted by a license holder at each end and held for less than a month by the transport person = no form required
Worth a try

In my personal submission I put in that there should be an online system where a dealer can verify a license holders details remotely, without the need for FSA interaction, thereby making mail order forms unnecessary for purchasing from a dealer

I completed a personal submission earlier.

But also with incoming information, The farm has just done one representing our interests as well. Will post it below for interest sake and because it's still not too late to submit and is easy.

[QUOTE]Firearms act submission.
On behalf of farm partnership

The family farm is a dairy and beef unit consisting of 400 hectares on the west coast of the south island. It employs 4 family members full time and two additional staff full time.
Firearms are both important work and recreational tool’s.

Currently two members of the family hold firearms licences, but we encourage staff to do so too, as it shares workload and allows more flexibility.
Farm firearm uses consist’s of humane dispatch of injured animals. Home slaughter of animals for food. Control of wild animals that damage tree plantations and crops. Control of pests that threaten native plant and animal species.
As such sections of the current law are too restrictive and don’t fit the requirements on the ground in day to day farm use.
The main principles
The main principle of the firearms act should be firstly to ensure the persons using firearms are fit and proper. Secondly to promote safe use and compliance through clear education and easy and clear application processes.
Firearm regulation process

It is fair to require more vetting and regulation based on risk profile. However its not adequate to restrict certain categories solely too current employment uses.
people change jobs too frequently. And not all pest control is viable on a commercial scale. We rely on recreational hunters that we trust through our own vetting to help control pest species. They and we, would benefit from a return to an E category of firearms open to non commercial licence holders. However the current level of vetting and safety compliance is acceptable.
The E category was proven to work and we believe had a high level of compliance with no history of misuse.
Firearm definitions

It needs to be simple and clear.
A category -for all sporting firearms Hunting and target that hold 10 shots or less.
E category - For all firearms with either fixed or removable magazines that can hold more than 10 shots. This includes possession of a magazine capable of such.
B category - Pistols. No change needed.

Collector category- No change needed

Options to surrender
There should be an open door policy re communication and ability to surrender firearms at any stage without fear of legal repercussion with time given once notified for sale or surrender of any such firearm. Presuming the firearm has not been used in a crime.

Fit and proper person test
The current test and vetting is appropriate. The age is appropriate. Firearms use is something that is best learnt under supervision of others under a range of conditions. It greatly helps to have young people out and participating and being able to handle and use firearms under supervision.

Ammunition and parts manufacture
There is no evidence that there is any problem in this regard. Reloading is a valuable tool for economically ensuring a reasonable supply of ammunition as well as smoothing out supply issues due to worldwide supply issues that crop up. Also many small town gunshop’s can not afford to stock the volumes of ammunition often needed for 12 months on farm use.
There is no issue existing with the manufacture or supply of gun parts. What needs to be ensured is that compliance costs don’t make it unduly restrictive for small businesses to compete with imported products.
A dealers licence should not be required to manufacture parts. Just whole firearms.
Ammunition purchases

Currently members on farm who hold licences, own differing types and calibres of firearms utilising differing cartridges for a range of purposes.
Any restriction on what ammunition any individual can purchase would mean an added difficulty in combining farm use purchases where multiply types of ammunition is ordered or bought at once by an individual member of the farm.
There is no need to restrict ability to purchase, too firearm calibers owned, as the fit and proper testing of all individuals is suitable for any ammunition available in New Zealand. At times on farm we also buy ammunition for recreational hunters who are doing pest control on our behalf.

Other issues

Currently our local gunships servicing the west coast struggle to be able to comply with onsite storage rules due too their size and floorspace options.
this has seen my closest store stop supplying ammunition and others severely reduce stocks. A workable solution that allows small stores to be able to trade should be looked at.

Thank you.
family Partnership./QUOTE]

I'm all done now, thanks to some points from this thread. cheers

Ok,alright,stop your nagging,I did it too.

Three submissions from my household done and submitted.

[QUOTE=whanahuia;1661337]I completed a personal submission earlier.

But also with incoming information, The farm has just done one representing our interests as well. Will post it below for interest sake and because it's still not too late to submit and is easy.

Firearms act submission.
On behalf of farm partnership

The family farm is a dairy and beef unit consisting of 400 hectares on the west coast of the south island. It employs 4 family members full time and two additional staff full time.
Firearms are both important work and recreational tool’s.

Currently two members of the family hold firearms licences, but we encourage staff to do so too, as it shares workload and allows more flexibility.
Farm firearm uses consist’s of humane dispatch of injured animals. Home slaughter of animals for food. Control of wild animals that damage tree plantations and crops. Control of pests that threaten native plant and animal species.
As such sections of the current law are too restrictive and don’t fit the requirements on the ground in day to day farm use.
The main principles
The main principle of the firearms act should be firstly to ensure the persons using firearms are fit and proper. Secondly to promote safe use and compliance through clear education and easy and clear application processes.
Firearm regulation process

It is fair to require more vetting and regulation based on risk profile. However its not adequate to restrict certain categories solely too current employment uses.
people change jobs too frequently. And not all pest control is viable on a commercial scale. We rely on recreational hunters that we trust through our own vetting to help control pest species. They and we, would benefit from a return to an E category of firearms open to non commercial licence holders. However the current level of vetting and safety compliance is acceptable.
The E category was proven to work and we believe had a high level of compliance with no history of misuse.
Firearm definitions

It needs to be simple and clear.
A category -for all sporting firearms Hunting and target that hold 10 shots or less.
E category - For all firearms with either fixed or removable magazines that can hold more than 10 shots. This includes possession of a magazine capable of such.
B category - Pistols. No change needed.

Collector category- No change needed

Options to surrender
There should be an open door policy re communication and ability to surrender firearms at any stage without fear of legal repercussion with time given once notified for sale or surrender of any such firearm. Presuming the firearm has not been used in a crime.

Fit and proper person test
The current test and vetting is appropriate. The age is appropriate. Firearms use is something that is best learnt under supervision of others under a range of conditions. It greatly helps to have young people out and participating and being able to handle and use firearms under supervision.

Ammunition and parts manufacture
There is no evidence that there is any problem in this regard. Reloading is a valuable tool for economically ensuring a reasonable supply of ammunition as well as smoothing out supply issues due to worldwide supply issues that crop up. Also many small town gunshop’s can not afford to stock the volumes of ammunition often needed for 12 months on farm use.
There is no issue existing with the manufacture or supply of gun parts. What needs to be ensured is that compliance costs don’t make it unduly restrictive for small businesses to compete with imported products.
A dealers licence should not be required to manufacture parts. Just whole firearms.
Ammunition purchases

Currently members on farm who hold licences, own differing types and calibres of firearms utilising differing cartridges for a range of purposes.
Any restriction on what ammunition any individual can purchase would mean an added difficulty in combining farm use purchases where multiply types of ammunition is ordered or bought at once by an individual member of the farm.
There is no need to restrict ability to purchase, too firearm calibers owned, as the fit and proper testing of all individuals is suitable for any ammunition available in New Zealand. At times on farm we also buy ammunition for recreational hunters who are doing pest control on our behalf.

Other issues

Currently our local gunships servicing the west coast struggle to be able to comply with onsite storage rules due too their size and floorspace options.
this has seen my closest store stop supplying ammunition and others severely reduce stocks. A workable solution that allows small stores to be able to trade should be looked at.

Thank you.
family Partnership./QUOTE]

This is really good.

Had an interesting discussion today talking about the items they put in the submission form, and I mentioned that the wording about it being a privilege to hold a firearms licence etc etc was in there. The person I was talking to has a legal background, and made a really interesting comment in that they might have made an error with describing it as a privilege.

He said that if it was in fact a privilege, the regulator could grant and then remove a firearms licence at will with no right of appeal. In actual fact, there are only certain reasons in the Arms Act by which they can currently revoke a licence and those sections of the Act also contain 'rights of appeal' which allow you lawful process to challenge the revocation. In the legal definitions he mentioned (big word in one ear, straight through out the other for me) that describe what is a privilege and what is a right, that fits more correctly with the right than the privilege. He also mentioned it drops into the discussion about the constitutional rights - which touches on a lot of other stuff that is going on at the moment including the treaty bill (he's just come back from speaking to the subcommittee regarding the submission he made on that bill and also another one).

It's an academic discussion, but I thought that it was really interesting from the standpoint of what was done to the firearms community with the last amendment and if it fact it was actually lawful.

Technically speaking you have a right to be issued a licenve if fit and proper (amongst other things) yes. The "It's a privilege" thing is a bullshit talking point. I said it should be removed

Done. Thanks for your points gimp, I used them where my knowledge of the current system is lacking.

[QUOTE=whanahuia;1661337]I completed a personal submission earlier.

But also with incoming information, The farm has just done one representing our interests as well. Will post it below for interest sake and because it's still not too late to submit and is easy.

Firearms act submission.
On behalf of farm partnership

The family farm is a dairy and beef unit consisting of 400 hectares on the west coast of the south island. It employs 4 family members full time and two additional staff full time.
Firearms are both important work and recreational tool’s.

Currently two members of the family hold firearms licences, but we encourage staff to do so too, as it shares workload and allows more flexibility.
Farm firearm uses consist’s of humane dispatch of injured animals. Home slaughter of animals for food. Control of wild animals that damage tree plantations and crops. Control of pests that threaten native plant and animal species.
As such sections of the current law are too restrictive and don’t fit the requirements on the ground in day to day farm use.
The main principles
The main principle of the firearms act should be firstly to ensure the persons using firearms are fit and proper. Secondly to promote safe use and compliance through clear education and easy and clear application processes.
Firearm regulation process

It is fair to require more vetting and regulation based on risk profile. However its not adequate to restrict certain categories solely too current employment uses.
people change jobs too frequently. And not all pest control is viable on a commercial scale. We rely on recreational hunters that we trust through our own vetting to help control pest species. They and we, would benefit from a return to an E category of firearms open to non commercial licence holders. However the current level of vetting and safety compliance is acceptable.
The E category was proven to work and we believe had a high level of compliance with no history of misuse.
Firearm definitions

It needs to be simple and clear.
A category -for all sporting firearms Hunting and target that hold 10 shots or less.
E category - For all firearms with either fixed or removable magazines that can hold more than 10 shots. This includes possession of a magazine capable of such.
B category - Pistols. No change needed.

Collector category- No change needed

Options to surrender
There should be an open door policy re communication and ability to surrender firearms at any stage without fear of legal repercussion with time given once notified for sale or surrender of any such firearm. Presuming the firearm has not been used in a crime.

Fit and proper person test
The current test and vetting is appropriate. The age is appropriate. Firearms use is something that is best learnt under supervision of others under a range of conditions. It greatly helps to have young people out and participating and being able to handle and use firearms under supervision.

Ammunition and parts manufacture
There is no evidence that there is any problem in this regard. Reloading is a valuable tool for economically ensuring a reasonable supply of ammunition as well as smoothing out supply issues due to worldwide supply issues that crop up. Also many small town gunshop’s can not afford to stock the volumes of ammunition often needed for 12 months on farm use.
There is no issue existing with the manufacture or supply of gun parts. What needs to be ensured is that compliance costs don’t make it unduly restrictive for small businesses to compete with imported products.
A dealers licence should not be required to manufacture parts. Just whole firearms.
Ammunition purchases

Currently members on farm who hold licences, own differing types and calibres of firearms utilising differing cartridges for a range of purposes.
Any restriction on what ammunition any individual can purchase would mean an added difficulty in combining farm use purchases where multiply types of ammunition is ordered or bought at once by an individual member of the farm.
There is no need to restrict ability to purchase, too firearm calibers owned, as the fit and proper testing of all individuals is suitable for any ammunition available in New Zealand. At times on farm we also buy ammunition for recreational hunters who are doing pest control on our behalf.

Other issues

Currently our local gunships servicing the west coast struggle to be able to comply with onsite storage rules due too their size and floorspace options.
this has seen my closest store stop supplying ammunition and others severely reduce stocks. A workable solution that allows small stores to be able to trade should be looked at.

Thank you.
family Partnership./QUOTE]

Similar on many points to mine and I also pointed out the onerous cost of a dealer's license throttling the profitability of a local gun shop which would leave us with only Gun City and Humping and Fisting as retailers - a situation analogous to only having Progressive and Foodstuffs running supermarkets in this country so why on earth would you want to artificially push the market towards a duopoly?

Thanks for all the posts in here, they certainly helped me to cover some of the points I wanted to but couldn't quite figure out how to articulate.

[QUOTE=whanahuia;1661337]I completed a personal submission earlier.

But also with incoming information, The farm has just done one representing our interests as well. Will post it below for interest sake and because it's still not too late to submit and is easy.

Firearms act submission.
On behalf of farm partnership

The family farm is a dairy and beef unit consisting of 400 hectares on the west coast of the south island. It employs 4 family members full time and two additional staff full time.
Firearms are both important work and recreational tool’s.

Currently two members of the family hold firearms licences, but we encourage staff to do so too, as it shares workload and allows more flexibility.
Farm firearm uses consist’s of humane dispatch of injured animals. Home slaughter of animals for food. Control of wild animals that damage tree plantations and crops. Control of pests that threaten native plant and animal species.
As such sections of the current law are too restrictive and don’t fit the requirements on the ground in day to day farm use.
The main principles
The main principle of the firearms act should be firstly to ensure the persons using firearms are fit and proper. Secondly to promote safe use and compliance through clear education and easy and clear application processes.
Firearm regulation process

It is fair to require more vetting and regulation based on risk profile. However its not adequate to restrict certain categories solely too current employment uses.
people change jobs too frequently. And not all pest control is viable on a commercial scale. We rely on recreational hunters that we trust through our own vetting to help control pest species. They and we, would benefit from a return to an E category of firearms open to non commercial licence holders. However the current level of vetting and safety compliance is acceptable.
The E category was proven to work and we believe had a high level of compliance with no history of misuse.
Firearm definitions

It needs to be simple and clear.
A category -for all sporting firearms Hunting and target that hold 10 shots or less.
E category - For all firearms with either fixed or removable magazines that can hold more than 10 shots. This includes possession of a magazine capable of such.
B category - Pistols. No change needed.

Collector category- No change needed

Options to surrender
There should be an open door policy re communication and ability to surrender firearms at any stage without fear of legal repercussion with time given once notified for sale or surrender of any such firearm. Presuming the firearm has not been used in a crime.

Fit and proper person test
The current test and vetting is appropriate. The age is appropriate. Firearms use is something that is best learnt under supervision of others under a range of conditions. It greatly helps to have young people out and participating and being able to handle and use firearms under supervision.

Ammunition and parts manufacture
There is no evidence that there is any problem in this regard. Reloading is a valuable tool for economically ensuring a reasonable supply of ammunition as well as smoothing out supply issues due to worldwide supply issues that crop up. Also many small town gunshop’s can not afford to stock the volumes of ammunition often needed for 12 months on farm use.
There is no issue existing with the manufacture or supply of gun parts. What needs to be ensured is that compliance costs don’t make it unduly restrictive for small businesses to compete with imported products.
A dealers licence should not be required to manufacture parts. Just whole firearms.
Ammunition purchases

Currently members on farm who hold licences, own differing types and calibres of firearms utilising differing cartridges for a range of purposes.
Any restriction on what ammunition any individual can purchase would mean an added difficulty in combining farm use purchases where multiply types of ammunition is ordered or bought at once by an individual member of the farm.
There is no need to restrict ability to purchase, too firearm calibers owned, as the fit and proper testing of all individuals is suitable for any ammunition available in New Zealand. At times on farm we also buy ammunition for recreational hunters who are doing pest control on our behalf.

Other issues

Currently our local gunships servicing the west coast struggle to be able to comply with onsite storage rules due too their size and floorspace options.
this has seen my closest store stop supplying ammunition and others severely reduce stocks. A workable solution that allows small stores to be able to trade should be looked at.

Thank you.
family Partnership./QUOTE]

I overlooked the potential for submitting on behalf of the farm business. That's another one for the win!

Originally Posted by Tentman

^ The basis of my submission was to radically simplify the "information regime" around fitearms by focussing on the "fit and proper person" approach, and a non statutory framework arround the whole firearms public safety thing. The use of paperwork such as the #43 is simply a vain effort by police to collect information that they hope might turn into intelligence - it doesnt work. I dont hold any hope of chanhing the narrative as my suggested approach wont cut it politically but I had to try . . .

I agree with your approach I went a little further and even suggested bringing back the old Mountain Safety Instructors - ( 25 years one myself) I reckon that worked - locals vetting locals - yes dont know exactly who would run it but suggested that Police only be involved in policing offences - I am okay with a register provided its sensible - stuck up for bringing back some semi auto centerfires as many destroyed were never military style i.e Browning BAR not likely to happen but had to do it - emphasis on fit and proper person - some military style centerfire allowed for specific target shooting disciplines as we used to have - again not holding any hope but had to do it -