Thread: The anti gun lobby

Originally Posted by Savage1

Yes I really do believe it, I have a lot more exposure to Police and their policies than you do and I've never once seen any thing that you could even remotely interpret as being a step to disarming people.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Does any of it say that they should ban all firearms and disarm citizens? Have the Police made any moves to ban any type of firearm?

It says Police has given careful consideration to the Thorpe Report, nowhere does it say they will be enacting all the recommendations from it.

Why would have they mucked around with pistol grips if they were just going to ban them outright anyway, it doesn't make any sense.

The actions that Police have taken speak a lot louder than those quotes you have put up from four years ago, and I haven't seen any attempts to ban any firearms.

Its not a legitimate argument to say that because I don't know about it, it can't exist....

Originally Posted by Savage1

Does any of it say that they should ban all firearms and disarm citizens? Have the Police made any moves to ban any type of firearm?

It says Police has given careful consideration to the Thorpe Report, nowhere does it say they will be enacting all the recommendations from it.

Why would have they mucked around with pistol grips if they were just going to ban them outright anyway, it doesn't make any sense.

The actions that Police have taken speak a lot louder than those quotes you have put up from four years ago, and I haven't seen any attempts to ban any firearms.

Have a look for Practical Shooting Insititute vs Commissioner of Police where a total ban on the importation of ALL semiautomatics was overturned.

Look at "A Review of Firearms Control in New Zealand" a report made by NZ Police to Thorp

7.4 Such weapon types that should be banned include shotguns with barell less than a certain length, firearms that discharge a bullet of a size greater than .50 calibre, and 'bullpup' firearms of any type.

Have a look through the Police Firearms Manual where the word 'banned' appears numerous times.

Wake up and sniff the 'banning' frevour!

Sure that's not a legitimate argument, but when you piece it together with the actions of the Police then that is a very valid argument, actions speak louder than words and so far there hasn't been any actions or direct statements saying that the Police are aiming to disarm the population or ban MSSAs. Until there is, just get out and enjoy your hobby.

I get sick of people scaremongering by selecting certain pieces of information and ignoring the big obvious picture.

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Have a look for Practical Shooting Insititute vs Commissioner of Police where a total ban on the importation of ALL semiautomatics was overturned.

Look at "A Review of Firearms Control in New Zealand" a report made by NZ Police to Thorp

7.4 Such weapon types that should be banned include shotguns with barell less than a certain length, firearms that discharge a bullet of a size greater than .50 calibre, and 'bullpup' firearms of any type.

Have a look through the Police Firearms Manual where the word 'banned' appears numerous times.

Wake up and sniff the 'banning' frevour!

The Thorp Report was an independent review commissioned by the NZ Police, Thorp produced it. Very big difference to what you are stating.

When I looked at the arms manual the word banned appeared once and the word banning once, neither time was it in reference to taking firearms off people.

I think you are the one that needs to wake up and stop spreading misinformation.

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/fi...anual_2002.pdf

8.12 Firearms Approved
for Import

The importation of the following shall only be approved through the Manager: Licensing
and Vetting. The applicant is to provide written explanation for wanting to import these
firearms, including why the general rule banning their import should not apply.
a) pistols or restricted weapons or parts of pistols or restricted weapons,
b) military style semi-automatic firearms or parts thereof,
c) semi automatic shotguns or parts thereof,
d) pump action shotguns or parts thereof,
e) firearms concealed within another item (eg: walking stick firearms)
f) doubled barrelled exposed hammer shotguns
g) rifles, carbines or shotguns less than 762 mm (30 inches) in overall length
h) firearms with folding, sliding, telescoping or other retractable stocks

Banning their import effectively is a policy banning continued ownership. You are now in denial!

Originally Posted by Savage1

Sure that's not a legitimate argument, but when you piece it together with the actions of the Police then that is a very valid argument, actions speak louder than words and so far there hasn't been any actions or direct statements saying that the Police are aiming to disarm the population or ban MSSAs. Until there is, just get out and enjoy your hobby.

I get sick of people scaremongering by selecting certain pieces of information and ignoring the big obvious picture.

Really?

Having an opinion without knowing what you are talking about is such a strong position to be starting to be an authority on any thing....

A foot soldier in any organisation, is not privy to policy and strategy planning.... however the people that dialog with those that do, certainly know more than you

You have no idea by your own admission what the situation is..... and when informed, you still don't shut up....

Big picture??

Here's the big picture... the police are actively implementing policies which are outside the law in order to make it difficult for people to acquire MSSa type firearms. When challenged in court they lose, and then they seek to get the law changed. They act illegally and they interfere politically.

.. and your solution is "enjoy your hobby, until the police make a direct announcement." Will they advise you first?

Please let us know when they do....

Originally Posted by Savage1

The Thorp Report was an independent review commissioned by the NZ Police, Thorp produced it. Very big difference to what you are stating.

When I looked at the arms manual the word banned appeared once and the word banning once, neither time was it in reference to taking firearms off people.

I think you are the one that needs to wake up and stop spreading misinformation.

The quote is from the Police report to Thorp made by the Opperations Suport Group - not from the Thorp Report itself

Also have another look at the Arms Manual - banned appears more than once.


The statement that I am spreading misinformation is untrue - you are spreading untruths!

Originally Posted by Southern Man

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/fi...anual_2002.pdf

8.12 Firearms Approved
for Import

The importation of the following shall only be approved through the Manager: Licensing
and Vetting. The applicant is to provide written explanation for wanting to import these
firearms, including why the general rule banning their import should not apply.
a) pistols or restricted weapons or parts of pistols or restricted weapons,
b) military style semi-automatic firearms or parts thereof,
c) semi automatic shotguns or parts thereof,
d) pump action shotguns or parts thereof,
e) firearms concealed within another item (eg: walking stick firearms)
f) doubled barrelled exposed hammer shotguns
g) rifles, carbines or shotguns less than 762 mm (30 inches) in overall length
h) firearms with folding, sliding, telescoping or other retractable stocks

Banning their import effectively is a policy banning continued ownership. You are now in denial!

So this one excerpt means that Police are trying to ban civilian ownership?! Since when were the items on that list banned from import? Pretty easy to get a hold of a,b,c,d,f,g,h. Last I checked there were plenty being imported. Not to mention this only applies to the certain firearms that aren't on the approved list. This is far from evidence of Police wanting to disarm the population.

Keep trying.

1. Before a Permit to Import is issued for any firearm a check shall be made to ensure the
firearm has been approved for import into New Zealand. A list of firearms approved for
import is available on the Police website. This list is not exhaustive – if a firearm is not on
the list a check should be made with the Police Armourer.
2. The description must be precise. It must specify make/model/type and action
(e.g.: “Mossberg 500” is an inadequate description as there are many models of Mossberg
500, some of them banned from importation).

Despite the clear fact that PSI vs COP made it abundantly plain that Police do not have and never have had the power to 'ban' any importation. A general rule of banning is pretty plain speaking to me - as I understand plain English.

It is blatantly obvious the police want to disarm the population, they are only succeeding in small steps,every police force anywhere would love to be the only people with firearms...makes the job a whole lot easier.

What police and govt fail to see is disarming the law abiding has no net gain at all unless they fear a civil war,overthrow of police/govt.

Criminals dont obey the law so any law changes to restrict or ban means only the big blue gang and all the other gangs have firearms(the armed forces probably have a couple as well)

Everyone else is trying to disarm their civilian population because its easy to control a angry population armed with rocks,bits of timber,handfuls of their own shit etc when you have firearms.

Its been going on since the dawn of civilization, It is always the goal of those in power to disarm anyone and everyone who may oppose.

Oh I don't know.... that could be scaremongering.....

The thing is in a democracy, the govt does not have a mandate to disarm to people because it is supposed to represent the people interests...

The interests of the people are for accountable govt. Not that the public has any right to be threatening its leadership by being armed, but the reality is that any population that is disarmed means less accountable govt.

The police just want to make their job easier. A lot of the antis genuinely believe that less arms in the community will mean a safer community. You can understand the logic, but reality doesn't seem to work that way.... they ignore that.

A lot of the political thinking is just about political expediency. If it is popular to ban firearms, and who doesn't like to be told that they are being made safe, then govt will be incentivised to go down that road...

Its not always a conspiracy, often its just the mechanics and how it works.

But anybody who doesn't understand that the police do have an agenda, has their head somewhere dark.....

Democracy is nothing more than tyranny of the majority. Two foxes and a chicken voting on what's for dinner. The foxes don't need a gun, the chicken does.

Our mate the police armorer also basically has the power to ban the import of what ever he wants - the option to appeal is there, if you are loaded and have spare time.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

handfuls of their own shit

They can enjoy prying that from my cold dead hand.

If the Police really wanted to ban firearms from civilian ownership then how do you think they would go about it. They've had over 15yrs since the Thorp report and what actual steps have they really taken? If they wanted to achieve that goal they would stop all imports, stop issuing FALs and endorsements, make licencing fees astronomical, revoking FAL from anybody with any kind of conviction and start pushing bills before the select committee increasing their power to cover all of these things, just to name a few. What have they really done? Tried to reclassify a tiny fraction of firearms so that you need to get an endorsement to own them, and offered that endorsement for no cost and given a grace period, that really sounds like a conspiracy to me. They haven't even tried to implement registration for A-cat.

When I take in all the facts available I quickly realise that they have no intention to disarm the population, that's just fantasy, unless they have a 200+ year time frame.

If Police were looking at banning any class of firearm I would have thought it would have been the pistols targeted first.

I realise this is just my opinion and I have no hope of changing or influencing anyone else's.