Thread: The anti gun lobby

Well said.

Originally Posted by Banana

People referring to firearm ownership as a privilege worries me.

That is it...it isnt a right, nor should it be IMHO.

Originally Posted by Banana

People referring to firearm ownership as a privilege worries me.

In New Zealand, firearms ownership is absolutely a privilege. It is not a right. The only right that we have is the right to make application for a firearms license. It is not a given that the application will be allowed.

rubbish .banana firstly google
Regina vs R grant(palmy nth high court)Decision of Justice Mallon.J. In short Justice Mallon delivers a massive arsekick to Police over the freestanding pistol grips issue.THEY CANNOT BE JUDGE JURY&EXECUTIONER.i make noapologies for that emphasis because that is the axis of thecase.
Once youve digested that .google "prof gary mauser",specifically his peer revjew of research published by one Adjucnt prof Philip Alpers of sydney university fame(ytes alpers previous was TVNZ fairgo reporter). a froggy nuclear weapon is akin to a soggy jelly bean when you read this.
now bear in mind the twat above.
in my final reference John Howat of COLFO- the UN hosts a conference on ARMS control. The govt at the time (Herr Clucks mob_specifically the weak chinned Alliance MP minster of disarmament Matt???????? sends Alpers FFS.
The Outcome
after a 2week jawfest -a 2 sentence Press release. "noone can agree on anything"
the reality was half of them didnt have the remotest why they were there ,of that, half ,wanted to know when the coffee &cakes would be served -half of that didnt evenknow where the bloody tea lady was located.
oh the other half- most of them are living on under table payments from the worlds biggest arms retailers ,who like the annual civil war to showcase the latest means of shagging human beings.

have you finished laughing yet-sorry if you fell off your stool but theres more.The last time the wellington woolshed .mickey mouse politicians debated our arms issues guns were referred to as "Rambo ak47s" FFS.If i spoke those words in my maimai your average mallard would hoever and shit on me ,and it wouls be richly deserved.

dont take it my criticism is universal ,theres a lot who work for my targets who are good honest knowlegeable people for whom ive the greatest respect,but as for the body corporate ,in a lot of cases it simply shows the limitations of DNA.

youyr arms code statement is a red herring for its always made very clear itsa merely a police guide to relevant sections of the arms act no more.

Originally Posted by Rushy

In New Zealand, firearms ownership is absolutely a privilege. It is not a right. The only right that we have is the right to make application for a firearms license. It is not a given that the application will be allowed.

They cannot refuse to give you a firearms licence unless they can establish that you are not a fit and proper person, that decision is made firstly by the police and their decision is subject to court review if the applicant pursues it.

That is the law.

You have a right to apply, and a legal right to be granted a firearms licence, if you are not disqualified by not being fit and proper in the courts opinion, and not the police's - that is purely a regulatory function.

The word privilege is a made up concoction, to suit a purpose. It is not and never has been a reality. But it is used by the police to keep us firearms owners tame and quiet and dependant, just hoping that they will let us exercise our legal freedoms and rights.

The paternalistic BS that comes with its application should be avoided at all costs.

I do understand the reason that its use has grown... it is about responsibility..... why don't we use that term...?

The ownership and use of firearms is both a right and a responsibility. If you are irresponsible your legal rights are removed....

This is the legal position... the use of the word privilege is an uninformed, and harmful practice. Something which only has a benefit in conveying the seriousness of the way that we exercise our rights. We can do that in other ways without instilling in ourselves a subservient and harmful attitude...

You all have a legal right to your own property, and yet the Govt can come along and put a motorway through under the Public Works Act, and can grant a mining licence if oil is found..... maybe your property ownership is really just a "privilege"

Half of you complain about apathy, while not even really understanding why..... there would be considerably less if we weren't all so bloody brainwashed...

Originally Posted by Rushy

In New Zealand, firearms ownership is absolutely a privilege. It is not a right. The only right that we have is the right to make application for a firearms license. It is not a given that the application will be allowed.

If you meet the criteria for a firearms license, then it is a given that the application will be allowed. The police can't just refuse to issue you a licence because they feel like it. If you're up to spec, then you have a right (legal entitlement, whatever you want to call it) to a firearms license. A firearms license gives you the right to own firearms, as no one can refuse you access to firearms if you have a license.

I am afraid I do not agree with the contention that firearms ownership in New Zealand is a right and find nothing in either of the above posts to convince me otherwise so will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Rushy

I am afraid I do not agree with the contention that firearms ownership in New Zealand is a right and find nothing in either of the above posts to convince me otherwise so will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

If you have an argument, then make it.. the contention that it is a privilege has never been justified, and apparently you cannot either. If you can't make a logical argument then stop using the term.

If you "feel" that its a privilege, then I can't argue with that. Fortunately feelings don't mean squat in a court room. Feelings are not a legal concept and feelings have nothing to do with logic.

You are perfectly entitled to disagree Rushy and if it didn't matter what terminology we used, then I wouldn't give a flying f... But thats not the case here.

There is no legal argument for your position... there is no legal application of the word privilege in this context, and you are attempting to discuss legal principles...

It does harm to misunderstand the legal position, and the police are certainly motivated to minimise the strength of our position at law, but why are you?

Is it just to convey the seriousness of the responsibility? Can we do that some other way other than by denying our rights? Does the possession of legal rights minimise our legal responsibilities? If we have legal rights, are we suddenly no longer culpable? Are we only culpable if we have "privileges?"

What is the problem with having legal rights? Do we all need to go and beat ourselves with sticks or something to make ourselves feel better.. bit of self flagellation anyone?

Shooting ourselves in the foot, might not be "fit & proper" they could come and take away all of our "privileges."

The english language is a bitch..... I feel privileged to live in a country where the right to own and use firearms is recognised in law, while acknowledging that many people live in countries where that right does not exist in law, and those countries citizens are not privileged in the same way.. is that more helpful?

Semantics are important... the denial of rights, are usually the premise of authoritarian powers...

Also, if you guys want to insist on telling people what your rights are, it would help to convince others if you didn't froth at the mouth quite so much.

If you want to talk about a "fraternity" of firearms users I would put it to you that we all have a responsibility to at least appear to be rational, not like those Dads for justice guys.

Incoherent arguments, different coloured lettering and capslock speeches are the internet forum equivalent of driving a RAV4 with a personalised plate and a stick figure family on the back window whilst wearing crocs and participating in airsoft sports



There. That should do the trick.

Originally Posted by 308

Also, if you guys want to insist on telling people what your rights are, it would help to convince others if you didn't froth at the mouth quite so much.

If you want to talk about a "fraternity" of firearms users I would put it to you that we all have a responsibility to at least appear to be rational, not like those Dads for justice guys.

Incoherent arguments, different coloured lettering and capslock speeches are the internet forum equivalent of driving a RAV4 with a personalised plate and a stick figure family on the back window whilst wearing crocs and participating in airsoft sports



There. That should do the trick.

So a bit above your head huh?

right
noun
a moral or legal entitlement to have or do something

Everyone is legally entitled to apply for a firearms license. Everyone who meets the criteria is legally entitled to a firearms license (police cannot refuse if criteria met). Everyone with a firearms license is legally entitled to buy, possess and use firearms.

You fail to convince me and for as long as there a single person who having the right to apply for a firearms license does not get that license for whatever reason (be it inability to pass a simple test process or having been determined to be an unfit individual) then you will not ever convince me that that individual or any of the rest of us have the right to own firearms as you assert.

I simply do not agree with you.

Do the rest of us a favour Rushy.... remain convinced internally....

The mind numbing number of times that the "privilege" crap comes out is not helpful.....

Goddammit, the day the right to own a firearm is deemed a privilege will be the end of society as we know it...the greatest killer by accidental death in this country is the motor vehicle...who in their right mind views motor vehicle ownership a privilege...

But I do not want to discuss that, I want to get back to the original subject matter...anti-gun lobbyists...theirs is the same as just about every lobby group there is...rabid zealots who blather their gobbledegook with the hysterical eyes of a wounded cape buffalo...I just wish that they could discuss their concerns in a logical, calm manner...just as the rest of touchy feely groups who have as much commonsense and practical knowledge of basically anything as a mealy bug. The poor brainwashed people...yes, I know, I know, we are all entitled to the privilege and right of having OUR own opinion...but you are not going to enlighten anyone with hysteria.

Originally Posted by Sidney

Do the rest of us a favour Rushy.... remain convinced internally....

The mind numbing number of times that the "privilege" crap comes out is not helpful.....

Chill man.