Thread: The anti gun lobby

Originally Posted by Savage1

Whether you like it or not, a FAL isn't an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from the moment of birth in NZ. Therefore it's a privilege. It is what it is.

Yeah well, you rely on comedians for your legal analysis...

I will maintain my rights under the law while they exist in the law. Pretty sure I have a more complete argument..

I am a bit concerned that you don't seem to know what legal rights are. Wandering around with the idea that everything is just a privilege is going to get you in a power of shit.

Lets just ignore the "God given" red herring, and the somewhat weird idea that legal rights can somehow only exist if they apply to all people for all time, and are irrevocable....

...


You know stepping back a little from this....

I haven't seen a concise definition of the word privilege that includes the following but it would seem to me that there is a component that we haven't talked about in the meaning of the word....

If a privilege is extended, it would seem that it is discretionary, and not obligated..... feasibly it can be withdrawn at whim (not being subject to obligation)...

- The granting of a firearms licence cannot be withheld without the applicant failing to meet the required standard - not discretionary

- The cancellation of a Firearms licence cannot be at the whim of the policing authority, it again is subject to the law before that can occur - not discretionary


Damm - don't think its a privilege after all.... everybody who does, please reassume the position.

Sidney, we are all safe as long as you are carrying the cudgel! FALs are in good hands, just keep it swinging and hit the right people!

I doubt that Macca... but I do love a good argument ....

I am however aware that the ole internet is not a particularly good conveyance of body language and tone, and apparently my style of prose may be more direct/abrasive than its intention.... for that I apologise to those feeling abraded ....

Mate we need people like you whatever we think. There is a common goal here as you well know, older guys I think just get a little cynical about these and other matters.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Whether you like it or not, a FAL isn't an inherent, irrevocable entitlement held by all citizens or all human beings from the moment of birth in NZ. Therefore it's a privilege. It is what it is.

A right is defined as a legal entitlement to have or do something. Nowhere does it say that a legal entitlement has to be inherent, irrevocable and applied to all humans to be classed as a right. No rights would meet that definition.

The fit and proper have a legal entitlement to be issued a FAL. A FAL is therefore a legal right for the fit and proper.

privilege
an advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted or available only to a particular person or group

Something can be both a right and a privilege. The problem with referring to rights as privileges, is that privilege usually refers to a permission, allowance, benefit, etc that is not legally guaranteed. ie. the privilege to hunt on someone else’s land.

Saying a FAL is a privilege and not a right is incorrect. A FAL is a legally guaranteed right for the fit and proper.

Originally Posted by Maca49

Mate we need people like you whatever we think. There is a common goal here as you well know, older guys I think just get a little cynical about these and other matters.

Who you callin old Willis?

I am becoming concerned that a deity often referred to by the dyslexic as dog is being mentioned so frequently in this thread.

Originally Posted by Rushy

I am becoming concerned that a deity often referred to by the dyslexic as dog is being mentioned so frequently in this thread.

Some folks like fairy tails

Or they are just superstitious

Rights are only rights as long as you stand up for them-the only person who gives you them is you and your actions

Originally Posted by res

Rights are only rights as long as you stand up for them-the only person who gives you them is you and your actions

Exactly. Purposely referring to your rights as privileges shows that you aren't prepared to stand up for them.

Originally Posted by Banana

Purposely referring to your rights as privileges shows that you aren't prepared to stand up for them.

Banana there are a number of forum members here who have family that have given the ultimate sacrifice so that you can live in this country and enjoy the freedom to say what you want on this forum and a number of them who have themselves survived serving in theatres of war to further preserve that position for you. On behalf of them all I take considerable exception to what you have said above.

Now that I re-read it, it did come off a bit cunty. I didn't intend it to. What I'm trying to say is, privilege gives the impression that you acknowledge you aren't legally, socially or ethically entitled to something, and would be prepared to relinquish it without issue.

Privilege could just as well give the impression that you are thankful for those freedoms, and appreciate the sacrifices of those that fought to ensure them.

Remember as well that different people attach different levels of importance to these "rights". If I had to choose between the privilege/right to a decent education, functioning justice system, ability to vote in democratic election versus owning firearms that I use for recreational purposes, it would not take me all that long to choose...

Don't worry guys another good war will sort our rights without privileges, your rights to own a firearm as as good as you collecting a pension, be nervous

Originally Posted by Rushy

Who you callin old Willis?

Cap fit?

Originally Posted by Maca49

Cap fit?

Snugly.