Thread: Colfo Announce Firearms Registry Review

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

Confiscation is a different discussion altogether. If it gets to that point we have serious issues and might need to reconsider options.

Nope. All part of the same rope unfortunately - what the media and outfits like GCNZ have done is make firearms admin hard, high potential for public failure and bad juju's for anyone tasked with it. The unfortunate thing is the environment in which the majority of firearms are used in NZ is relatively unique in world standards, largely due to piss poor acclimatisation decisions made back in the day. We have a unique operating environment where people are required to use firearms as part of their role as 'tools of trade', and under the same licence as recreational users - and then you have professional users which have now been separated out again under a much more onerous regime alongside dealers, manufacturers and retailers. It's a mess, the legislation was rotten before the Chch attack just by too many amendments with not a lot of understanding, it was made a lot more incoherent in the knee jerk after and the only way to fix it so it's workable is chuck the Act out and start again. This is where the current Govt are on the correct track in my opinion but it remains to be seen if they get it right.

You make a very good point but I suspect that registration is more like the thin end of the wedge

You don't need semiautos
You don't need a 50 cal
You don't need anything bigger than a 300Win Mag
You don't need pistols with mags larger than 6
You don't need military calibres
You don't need..


I believe that if you don't fight you lose

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

I agree with all the reasons given here why the register is a waste of time; too expensive, serial numbers can be removed, etc, etc, etc. But I have come round to holding the opposite opinion now; the public have been convinced this is a good idea, they're happy to pay for it with tax, so let's do it! Before anyone shouts me down please hear me out

A lot of people believe the register will make us safer. Ok, let's register our firearms. Then we're all safe, they say. But as legal shooters we WILL be better off. Any firearms crime from then on will be shown to be not committed by us. Once we're all registered and criminals are finding firearms, Cahill cannot blame us any more. Gun Control NZ cannot make a big deal about evil irresponsible firearms owners. Any legal firearm owner supplying guns to gangs will get hammered big time... good. I doubt there are many licenced shooters acting irresponsibly, but I'm happy for those bad few to get hammered. It's in our collective advantage to be proven to be the good guys.

At the end of the day it will be seen that firearms crime has not changed, unless the police are allowed to seriously go after criminals. Legal shooters will be shown to be blameless. I don't see a downside for us.

The idea that the register will be a shoping list for criminals is a legitimate concern. However, it also works in our favour. First up, if I was wanting to steal a firearm for crime I would target B, C and P licences, these firearms have been registered for decades anyway. I'm a farmer, any criminal wanting a firearm will know that most farms are a good source for firearms, I'm no worse off for being registered. Deliberate firearms theft from farms and other businesses likely to have them will not increase from firearms being registered. If the police database is broken into and firearms stolen to order by gangs it will be the biggest legitimisation of the shooters position imaginable, and a death blow for the positions of GCNZ etc and all the other gun-grabbers/registry fanatics. I doubt most people will be at significanlty higher risk of firearm theft after registering than they are now, and the politics of any of these thefts that might occurr are entirely in our favour.

The registry is highly favoured by too much of our population for it to work in our favour if it is abolished now. If it is abolished at this stage all future firearm crime will be publicly seen as our fault, and "it would not have happened if those selfish/evil shooters had been registered". Yes it is expensive and a pain in the butt, but ultimately it is very much in our favour for winning public support. There is not much to lose by registering, and much potential political advantage once it's clearly shown that the register is not stopping crime, and that we were innocent all along.

You reasons are sound, but the biggest issue is that it's not what the registry can do for shooters - it what it costs all of us on the way there. Sure, general public currently believes the register fixes all evil but also don't underestimate the pressure from other jurisdictions that totally dislike the fact that NZ has had such a permissive regime for many years without a registry. I think the issue we are having with some of those jurisdictions probably help that cause though.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the public thinks of the registry though - if it became an equation of registry or cancer drugs, registry or mental health etc etc I have a fair idea which way it would go. I mean, this is the same public that thinks we should all stop drilling for oil and gas, burning coal, and buying ICE cars but then gets totally pissy when their power bill goes up or they can't get a loan from the bank. A lot of gear but no idea. Go figure...

Originally Posted by No.3

You reasons are sound, but the biggest issue is that it's not what the registry can do for shooters - it what it costs all of us on the way there. .

The registry will be expensive and ultimately useless... but the best way to demonstrate this at this stage is to do it. Just like the best way to make people realise our profound dependance on oil and carbon fuels generally is to go with alternatives for a few winters... once the population is cold, and food and clothing etc is unaffordable and unobtainable due to increased transport costs people will release there is a real choice to be made; do we want a modern standard of living, or accept a pre-industrial lifestyle (while other countries speed past us in standard of living) in the hope of saving the wrold from the weather? The current collapse in EV sales across the world is a strong indication that rationality is coming back to the green dream, as the alternatives are shown to be worse than ICE vehicles, conventional fuels etc. I see potentially the same thing in the registry, the anti- people will hold it against us forever if we don't demonstrate to them we are not the problem. Worst case is that we had it wrong and the register actually does make us all safer, so it's a win win. I don't want the register with the associated waste of money but after 5 years of sustained propaganda I see down sides to getting rid of it before it is proven to be ineffective, and if the majority of the population want it that is democracy in action.

I think it is best summed up with a favorite saying of a since retired talk show host, "inch by inch, step by step"

Originally Posted by 7mm tragic

I think it is best summed up with a favorite saying of a since retired talk show host, "inch by inch, step by step"

Yes a little bit at a time.
Look up a peom called The Hangman by Maurice Ogden
Very fitting for these discussions.
If someone could link it here please. I'll try but not sure I have the skills.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Yes a little bit at a time.
Look up a peom called The Hangman by Maurice Ogden
Very fitting for these discussions.
If someone could link it here please. I'll try but not sure I have the skills.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...bri2Dm_kRTpskK

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

ummm but we weren't the bad guys in the first place so we are fuked anyway.

There is not much to lose by registering, and much potential political advantage once it's clearly shown that the register is not stopping crime, and that we were innocent all along.

Fair statement Ben but unfortunately NZ Police are taking their lead from Australia, what will happen is they will double-down and start making it more restrictive by way of Legislation via Order-in-Council. Next we will have Calibre & Ammunition Restrictions, Number of Firearms Held restrictions etc, etc, etc. At the heart of this is Police National HQ (Bullshit Castle) do not want anyone to have Firerams except themselves. They will keep at us continually - ad infinitum.

While I agree with you us Shooters have to remember we are not on a fair playing field.

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

for me, short answer is no.

I've heard anecdotally about errors with the B cat reg which should be easier to manage due to the amount of people with the endorsement. There is little to no trust that the administration of any reg is going to be competent,secure and accurate.

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

I have already registered all of mine Ben. Can I please have my E category firearms back? Most specifically the Typhoon F12 but I would also appreciate having the AR15 back as well. I shot a multi gun competition at the club on Saturday and not only did I duff loading my Benelli M3 on the move (never happened changing magazines on the Typhoon) but I also shot a “no shoot” with my AR look alike .22 toy which I had never done in years of shooting with the 556 real rifle. I understand that you probably don’t have the authority to grant me these things but I ask on the off chance that you might be a Genie residing in a bottle.

@Ben Waimata
Good on ya for trying to see the positive in the situation and I would like to be able to agree with you but I just don't trust Popo because they have screwed up , not listened and generally fucked us around for so long that if Cahill told me that grass is green and water is wet, I'd go outside to check for myself

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

Basically you are talking about turning the clock back to what we had before - Police knew about the issues with the previous system as they were all pointed out multiple times by shooters and in some cases by media beat up (Heather Du Plessis Allen media on mail order firearms). Police didn't do anything about the issues - largely because it would mean using all of the funds earmarked for improving the firearms admin regime and they were more interested in supporting core business than using the funding as earmarked. It was a governance failure in not ringfencing that funding to only be used for what it should be, and that in my opinion is one reason all inquiries have been prevented from assessing that area.

I don't see this so much as a hit on firearms owners so much as a "save my own arse" step from the peoples that actually carry the can for the failures of the firearms admin regime - it is reliant on so many cogs in the machine turning at the right time in the right direction and all it takes is one little overworked and underfunded cog to not turn at the right speed for the entire machine to cease operating. This looks to me like a sea-change turn in a different direction more as a "look we are doing all this" rather than a rational attempt to improve anything - "the last system didn't work, lets change everything and see if we can do this". The point I'm making is it's a bit like Russia having a crack at Ukraine - failed dismally on minute 1, day one and by still trying to dig their way out of the hole 2-1/2 years later all they've got is a hole so deep they can't get out of it. The only way to make it work is stop proceedings, step back, calm rational analysis of exactly what the causes of the cock up were and what needs to be changed to fix it before so many resources are chucked into the hole that the only way to go is keep digging before the hole overflows and it becomes a worse embarrassment...

BSA
I understand a significant number of senior police are UK or have UK work experience.
This has affected NZ polices Managements attitude.
With them introducing many of the same delusional policies rampant in the UK.
Favoured minorities get a free pass.
Ordinary citizens and Traditional Practices get hammered.
Firearms Owners or others that are seen to threaten the New Order are especially disliked.