Thread: Colfo Announce Firearms Registry Review

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

I have already registered all of mine Ben. Can I please have my E category firearms back? Most specifically the Typhoon F12 but I would also appreciate having the AR15 back as well. I shot a multi gun competition at the club on Saturday and not only did I duff loading my Benelli M3 on the move (never happened changing magazines on the Typhoon) but I also shot a “no shoot” with my AR look alike .22 toy which I had never done in years of shooting with the 556 real rifle. I understand that you probably don’t have the authority to grant me these things but I ask on the off chance that you might be a Genie residing in a bottle.

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

Basically you are talking about turning the clock back to what we had before - Police knew about the issues with the previous system as they were all pointed out multiple times by shooters and in some cases by media beat up (Heather Du Plessis Allen media on mail order firearms). Police didn't do anything about the issues - largely because it would mean using all of the funds earmarked for improving the firearms admin regime and they were more interested in supporting core business than using the funding as earmarked. It was a governance failure in not ringfencing that funding to only be used for what it should be, and that in my opinion is one reason all inquiries have been prevented from assessing that area.

I don't see this so much as a hit on firearms owners so much as a "save my own arse" step from the peoples that actually carry the can for the failures of the firearms admin regime - it is reliant on so many cogs in the machine turning at the right time in the right direction and all it takes is one little overworked and underfunded cog to not turn at the right speed for the entire machine to cease operating. This looks to me like a sea-change turn in a different direction more as a "look we are doing all this" rather than a rational attempt to improve anything - "the last system didn't work, lets change everything and see if we can do this". The point I'm making is it's a bit like Russia having a crack at Ukraine - failed dismally on minute 1, day one and by still trying to dig their way out of the hole 2-1/2 years later all they've got is a hole so deep they can't get out of it. The only way to make it work is stop proceedings, step back, calm rational analysis of exactly what the causes of the cock up were and what needs to be changed to fix it before so many resources are chucked into the hole that the only way to go is keep digging before the hole overflows and it becomes a worse embarrassment...

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

Confiscation is a different discussion altogether. If it gets to that point we have serious issues and might need to reconsider options.

Nope. All part of the same rope unfortunately - what the media and outfits like GCNZ have done is make firearms admin hard, high potential for public failure and bad juju's for anyone tasked with it. The unfortunate thing is the environment in which the majority of firearms are used in NZ is relatively unique in world standards, largely due to piss poor acclimatisation decisions made back in the day. We have a unique operating environment where people are required to use firearms as part of their role as 'tools of trade', and under the same licence as recreational users - and then you have professional users which have now been separated out again under a much more onerous regime alongside dealers, manufacturers and retailers. It's a mess, the legislation was rotten before the Chch attack just by too many amendments with not a lot of understanding, it was made a lot more incoherent in the knee jerk after and the only way to fix it so it's workable is chuck the Act out and start again. This is where the current Govt are on the correct track in my opinion but it remains to be seen if they get it right.

Originally Posted by BSA

And Right On Cue the Herald run a hit piece, no doubt at the behest of Police. It is behind a pay-wall so not many will read it hopefully.

Firearms and ammunition purchased by straw buyers supplied to Head Hunters, Black Power and Rebels gangs

An extract from the article
A semi-automatic rifle suspected of being fired in an Auckland gang shooting was traced back to a licenced gun owner who legally purchased the gun four years earlier.

The Beretta CX4 Storm found in the possession of a Head Hunter in February 2022, just days after a shooting involving a rival gang, was one of 15 firearms purchased by the firearms licence holder over an 18-month period starting in 2017.

He then illegally sold the guns to criminal associates who didn’t have licences.

As well as the semi-automatic Beretta – later banned completely after the Christchurch terrorist attacks – one of the 10 shotguns the 37-year-old bought was later discovered in the possession of a Black Power prospect.

The licence holder has now pleaded guilty to a representative charge of unlawful possession of firearms and will be sentenced in August.

In a separate investigation, another licensed gun owner has recently admitted illegally supplying ammunition to Texas Doctor, a patched member of the Rebels motorcycle gang.

BTW there are legal ways to look behind paywalls - without paying.
I'd pay for quality journalism but there's little to none to be found in the NZ media.

Originally Posted by Cyclops

An extract from the article
A semi-automatic rifle suspected of being fired in an Auckland gang shooting was traced back to a licenced gun owner who legally purchased the gun four years earlier.

The Beretta CX4 Storm found in the possession of a Head Hunter in February 2022, just days after a shooting involving a rival gang, was one of 15 firearms purchased by the firearms licence holder over an 18-month period starting in 2017.

He then illegally sold the guns to criminal associates who didn’t have licences.

As well as the semi-automatic Beretta – later banned completely after the Christchurch terrorist attacks – one of the 10 shotguns the 37-year-old bought was later discovered in the possession of a Black Power prospect.

The licence holder has now pleaded guilty to a representative charge of unlawful possession of firearms and will be sentenced in August.

In a separate investigation, another licensed gun owner has recently admitted illegally supplying ammunition to Texas Doctor, a patched member of the Rebels motorcycle gang.
.

Idiots like this give us all a bad name. This is actually the one and only thing the register will be good for, stopping these fools selling firearms to gangs. And yes the irony of the fact that the firearm could be traced back without a register is not lost on me, but registered firearms will act as strong incentive to stop this happening in future. A year ago I would have never dreamed I'd ever be suggesting positives from the register on this forum!

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

Idiots like this give us all a bad name. This is actually the one and only thing the register will be good for, stopping these fools selling firearms to gangs. And yes the irony of the fact that the firearm could be traced back without a register is not lost on me, but registered firearms will act as strong incentive to stop this happening in future. A year ago I would have never dreamed I'd ever be suggesting positives from the register on this forum!

Problem with it is the same clown that wants illegal firearms also wants stolen cordless grinders. 0.002 seconds with a cordless grinder, and serial number be gone, register defeated. I went to borrow a bit of gear a while back and felt like my hand was burning - rough as grinder marks all over it... Oh, jammed it on a job and it got a bit scratched haha. Yeah, nah bruh. The only possible positive of some clown taking a grinder to a firearm is the possibility they turn it into a bomb. We probably wouldn't be that fortunate to be fair!

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

Idiots like this give us all a bad name. This is actually the one and only thing the register will be good for, stopping these fools selling firearms to gangs. And yes the irony of the fact that the firearm could be traced back without a register is not lost on me, but registered firearms will act as strong incentive to stop this happening in future. A year ago I would have never dreamed I'd ever be suggesting positives from the register on this forum!

The information was available before the register as shown by this prosecution.
The sales were recorded at/by the dealer.
The recovered firearms had serial numbers that could be traced.

No need for a register when police work is done properly.

IMHO this isn't evidence to support the continuation of the register.

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

Idiots like this give us all a bad name. This is actually the one and only thing the register will be good for, stopping these fools selling firearms to gangs. And yes the irony of the fact that the firearm could be traced back without a register is not lost on me, but registered firearms will act as strong incentive to stop this happening in future. A year ago I would have never dreamed I'd ever be suggesting positives from the register on this forum!

It won't stop it. It might slow it down. But there are cases of C cat holders selling registered firearms.
Dumb is dumb.

Originally Posted by Cyclops

IMHO this isn't evidence to support the continuation of the register.

It would stop 2nd or 3rd party sales. Legal buyer recorded at point of sale onsells to legal buyer with no paperwork, once this has happened 2 or 3 times the paper trail is lost. Anyone found in possession of unregistered firearm (includidng ones without serial numbers) is automatically acting illegaly, so bad buyers will not buy to onsell to gangs. It is the only benefit of the register, apart from boosting the public perception we are acting honestly and legally as firearms users.

But yes I agree it is a waste of time, I'm trying to look on the bright side here.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

there are cases of C cat holders selling registered firearms.
Dumb is dumb.

That is far worse than dumb. That idiot deserves jail time, if they were knowingly selling illegally.

Some firearms that don't have serial numbers applied (it's a 20th century invention) have caused another problem, we now have a lot of the same model of rifle with serial number 1...

There are also other ways much cheaper of recording serial numbers and ownership transfers and they have been in use for years. Some places (in the US as well surprisingly) make you keep a unique numbered record book in which you record the purchase date, who it came from, and the info for the firearm including disposal date and who or how it was disposed of. You retain the book, must produce it on request and are responsible for it's security obviously. It seems a much better system than what we have - as the only way to check it's accurate is the same as the electronic registry. Cuts out the hassle and error factor straight off though and has the same prevention effect as the electronic version. Lose the serial numbered book and have to explain that...

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

It would stop 2nd or 3rd party sales. Legal buyer recorded at point of sale onsells to legal buyer with no paperwork, once this has happened 2 or 3 times the paper trail is lost. Anyone found in possession of unregistered firearm (includidng ones without serial numbers) is automatically acting illegaly, so bad buyers will not buy to onsell to gangs. It is the only benefit of the register, apart from boosting the public perception we are acting honestly and legally as firearms users.

But yes I agree it is a waste of time, I'm trying to look on the bright side here.

Everyone's got a right to choose either way, but some are just going to argue for the sake of it Ben

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Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

It would stop 2nd or 3rd party sales. Legal buyer recorded at point of sale onsells to legal buyer with no paperwork, once this has happened 2 or 3 times the paper trail is lost. Anyone found in possession of unregistered firearm (includidng ones without serial numbers) is automatically acting illegaly, so bad buyers will not buy to onsell to gangs. It is the only benefit of the register, apart from boosting the public perception we are acting honestly and legally as firearms users.

But yes I agree it is a waste of time, I'm trying to look on the bright side here.

close but no cigar.........gun can be registered to joe X and continue to be registered to joeX yet it may now be long gone and moved off to darker pastures...untill such time as its found,with serial number,serial numberless..oops even then its no longer tracable back to joeX and nobody will ever check if joeX has or has not still got it

Originally Posted by BRADS

Everyone's got a right to choose either way, but some are just going to argue for the sake of it Ben

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It's fully understandable and not just for the sake of it, we've all been treated as if we are ciminals, had massive new legislation thrown at us to keep us under control, and to convince the public that we are suitably controlled. No wonder so many shooters feel victimised. Personally I think the egister is far less of an issue than other aspects of the law change, such as range rules, access to semi autos, etc. But given how few farmers, foresters, orchardists etc have applied for P licenses for pest control maybe we are collectively our own worst enemies. It will be hard to mount an argument of the need for semi autos for pest control as the legal access has been available since January 2020 but comparatively there have been very few applications.

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

It's fully understandable and not just for the sake of it, we've all been treated as if we are ciminals, had massive new legislation thrown at us to keep us under control, and to convince the public that we are suitably controlled. No wonder so many shooters feel victimised. Personally I think the egister is far less of an issue than other aspects of the law change, such as range rules, access to semi autos, etc. But given how few farmers, foresters, orchardists etc have applied for P licenses for pest control maybe we are collectively our own worst enemies. It will be hard to mount an argument of the need for semi autos for pest control as the legal access has been available since January 2020 but comparatively there have been very few applications.

A lot of the initial applicants got denied - and were loud about it. Job done really. Now we have massive but silent pest animal population growth and the people who are concerned about it can't fund or don't have sufficient funding to do anything about it and via their roles can't kick up a stink. Bit of an own goal that aspect of it. People could continue to apply pressure to the pest animal populations despite the most efficient tool for the job being removed, but in the majority of cases they've just thrown their hands up and said no longer my problem - why do it for free in that case? I can actually understand that.