Thread: Colfo Announce Firearms Registry Review

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

I agree with all the reasons given here why the register is a waste of time; too expensive, serial numbers can be removed, etc, etc, etc. But I have come round to holding the opposite opinion now; the public have been convinced this is a good idea, they're happy to pay for it with tax, so let's do it! Before anyone shouts me down please hear me out

A lot of people believe the register will make us safer. Ok, let's register our firearms. Then we're all safe, they say. But as legal shooters we WILL be better off. Any firearms crime from then on will be shown to be not committed by us. Once we're all registered and criminals are finding firearms, Cahill cannot blame us any more. Gun Control NZ cannot make a big deal about evil irresponsible firearms owners. Any legal firearm owner supplying guns to gangs will get hammered big time... good. I doubt there are many licenced shooters acting irresponsibly, but I'm happy for those bad few to get hammered. It's in our collective advantage to be proven to be the good guys.

At the end of the day it will be seen that firearms crime has not changed, unless the police are allowed to seriously go after criminals. Legal shooters will be shown to be blameless. I don't see a downside for us.

The idea that the register will be a shoping list for criminals is a legitimate concern. However, it also works in our favour. First up, if I was wanting to steal a firearm for crime I would target B, C and P licences, these firearms have been registered for decades anyway. I'm a farmer, any criminal wanting a firearm will know that most farms are a good source for firearms, I'm no worse off for being registered. Deliberate firearms theft from farms and other businesses likely to have them will not increase from firearms being registered. If the police database is broken into and firearms stolen to order by gangs it will be the biggest legitimisation of the shooters position imaginable, and a death blow for the positions of GCNZ etc and all the other gun-grabbers/registry fanatics. I doubt most people will be at significanlty higher risk of firearm theft after registering than they are now, and the politics of any of these thefts that might occurr are entirely in our favour.

The registry is highly favoured by too much of our population for it to work in our favour if it is abolished now. If it is abolished at this stage all future firearm crime will be publicly seen as our fault, and "it would not have happened if those selfish/evil shooters had been registered". Yes it is expensive and a pain in the butt, but ultimately it is very much in our favour for winning public support. There is not much to lose by registering, and much potential political advantage once it's clearly shown that the register is not stopping crime, and that we were innocent all along.

Logic says you are correct.
But name me one country where registration hasn't resulted in confiscation.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Logic says you are correct.
But name me one country where registration hasn't resulted in confiscation.

Confiscation is a different discussion altogether. If it gets to that point we have serious issues and might need to reconsider options.

You make a very good point but I suspect that registration is more like the thin end of the wedge

You don't need semiautos
You don't need a 50 cal
You don't need anything bigger than a 300Win Mag
You don't need pistols with mags larger than 6
You don't need military calibres
You don't need..


I believe that if you don't fight you lose

I think it is best summed up with a favorite saying of a since retired talk show host, "inch by inch, step by step"

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

I agree with all the reasons given here why the register is a waste of time; too expensive, serial numbers can be removed, etc, etc, etc. But I have come round to holding the opposite opinion now; the public have been convinced this is a good idea, they're happy to pay for it with tax, so let's do it! Before anyone shouts me down please hear me out

A lot of people believe the register will make us safer. Ok, let's register our firearms. Then we're all safe, they say. But as legal shooters we WILL be better off. Any firearms crime from then on will be shown to be not committed by us. Once we're all registered and criminals are finding firearms, Cahill cannot blame us any more. Gun Control NZ cannot make a big deal about evil irresponsible firearms owners. Any legal firearm owner supplying guns to gangs will get hammered big time... good. I doubt there are many licenced shooters acting irresponsibly, but I'm happy for those bad few to get hammered. It's in our collective advantage to be proven to be the good guys.

At the end of the day it will be seen that firearms crime has not changed, unless the police are allowed to seriously go after criminals. Legal shooters will be shown to be blameless. I don't see a downside for us.

The idea that the register will be a shoping list for criminals is a legitimate concern. However, it also works in our favour. First up, if I was wanting to steal a firearm for crime I would target B, C and P licences, these firearms have been registered for decades anyway. I'm a farmer, any criminal wanting a firearm will know that most farms are a good source for firearms, I'm no worse off for being registered. Deliberate firearms theft from farms and other businesses likely to have them will not increase from firearms being registered. If the police database is broken into and firearms stolen to order by gangs it will be the biggest legitimisation of the shooters position imaginable, and a death blow for the positions of GCNZ etc and all the other gun-grabbers/registry fanatics. I doubt most people will be at significanlty higher risk of firearm theft after registering than they are now, and the politics of any of these thefts that might occurr are entirely in our favour.

The registry is highly favoured by too much of our population for it to work in our favour if it is abolished now. If it is abolished at this stage all future firearm crime will be publicly seen as our fault, and "it would not have happened if those selfish/evil shooters had been registered". Yes it is expensive and a pain in the butt, but ultimately it is very much in our favour for winning public support. There is not much to lose by registering, and much potential political advantage once it's clearly shown that the register is not stopping crime, and that we were innocent all along.

You reasons are sound, but the biggest issue is that it's not what the registry can do for shooters - it what it costs all of us on the way there. Sure, general public currently believes the register fixes all evil but also don't underestimate the pressure from other jurisdictions that totally dislike the fact that NZ has had such a permissive regime for many years without a registry. I think the issue we are having with some of those jurisdictions probably help that cause though.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what the public thinks of the registry though - if it became an equation of registry or cancer drugs, registry or mental health etc etc I have a fair idea which way it would go. I mean, this is the same public that thinks we should all stop drilling for oil and gas, burning coal, and buying ICE cars but then gets totally pissy when their power bill goes up or they can't get a loan from the bank. A lot of gear but no idea. Go figure...

Originally Posted by No.3

You reasons are sound, but the biggest issue is that it's not what the registry can do for shooters - it what it costs all of us on the way there. .

The registry will be expensive and ultimately useless... but the best way to demonstrate this at this stage is to do it. Just like the best way to make people realise our profound dependance on oil and carbon fuels generally is to go with alternatives for a few winters... once the population is cold, and food and clothing etc is unaffordable and unobtainable due to increased transport costs people will release there is a real choice to be made; do we want a modern standard of living, or accept a pre-industrial lifestyle (while other countries speed past us in standard of living) in the hope of saving the wrold from the weather? The current collapse in EV sales across the world is a strong indication that rationality is coming back to the green dream, as the alternatives are shown to be worse than ICE vehicles, conventional fuels etc. I see potentially the same thing in the registry, the anti- people will hold it against us forever if we don't demonstrate to them we are not the problem. Worst case is that we had it wrong and the register actually does make us all safer, so it's a win win. I don't want the register with the associated waste of money but after 5 years of sustained propaganda I see down sides to getting rid of it before it is proven to be ineffective, and if the majority of the population want it that is democracy in action.

ummm but we weren't the bad guys in the first place so we are fuked anyway.

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

Confiscation is a different discussion altogether. If it gets to that point we have serious issues and might need to reconsider options.

Ben,it Always leads to confiscation. Always.

Along the way the costs increase,the security requirements become more onerous,types of guns become limited, the number you can own does too.

Then ,when there is nothing left the people who remember the good times wish they did more.A generation later firearm access is so limited that the very idea fades from reality. I have seen it mate and its going on here too.

There is not much to lose by registering, and much potential political advantage once it's clearly shown that the register is not stopping crime, and that we were innocent all along.

Fair statement Ben but unfortunately NZ Police are taking their lead from Australia, what will happen is they will double-down and start making it more restrictive by way of Legislation via Order-in-Council. Next we will have Calibre & Ammunition Restrictions, Number of Firearms Held restrictions etc, etc, etc. At the heart of this is Police National HQ (Bullshit Castle) do not want anyone to have Firerams except themselves. They will keep at us continually - ad infinitum.

While I agree with you us Shooters have to remember we are not on a fair playing field.

Originally Posted by 7mm tragic

I think it is best summed up with a favorite saying of a since retired talk show host, "inch by inch, step by step"

Yes a little bit at a time.
Look up a peom called The Hangman by Maurice Ogden
Very fitting for these discussions.
If someone could link it here please. I'll try but not sure I have the skills.

Originally Posted by norsk

Ben,it Always leads to confiscation. Always.

Along the way the costs increase,the security requirements become more onerous,types of guns become limited, the number you can own does too.

Then ,when there is nothing left the people who remember the good times wish they did more.A generation later firearm access is so limited that the very idea fades from reality. I have seen it mate and its going on here too.

I'd like you comments norsk for the reason you are saying it. But I hate what you are saying because it is true.
Ben's comments do have merit in a world where everyone is honest and plays properly.
But we are getting new rules enforced on us because the baddies aren't adhering to the rules we already have.
Just like we have plenty of positive statistics on licenced firearm owners, which are being ignored and/or misquoted by the "Cahills" of our world. I feel sacrificing some "territory" in the hope it will provide more favourable stats to be ignored is not a good move. We have already giving a lot of ground (or had it taken) through no fault of ours.
There are plenty of stats from around the world to use in this argument.
Unfortunately every antigun crusader that pushes these agendas thinks they are going to be "the one" that makes it work. And they are oblivious to history.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Yes a little bit at a time.
Look up a peom called The Hangman by Maurice Ogden
Very fitting for these discussions.
If someone could link it here please. I'll try but not sure I have the skills.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...bri2Dm_kRTpskK

Sent from my SM-A226B using Tapatalk

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

There is a lot of negativity here, which is probably entirely reasonable and rational. Here's a question for you all: Would you be happy to maintain the register if there was a chance of getting something like E category back? Because if we did get wider access to semi autos, they would be under very strict control just like P category (and B, C) is now. Would you all refuse any possibility to get a semi auto because you have an objection to having it registered? Or, would you accept registering all your A cat if it meant the chance of owning an E cat?

for me, short answer is no.

I've heard anecdotally about errors with the B cat reg which should be easier to manage due to the amount of people with the endorsement. There is little to no trust that the administration of any reg is going to be competent,secure and accurate.

BSA
I understand a significant number of senior police are UK or have UK work experience.
This has affected NZ polices Managements attitude.
With them introducing many of the same delusional policies rampant in the UK.
Favoured minorities get a free pass.
Ordinary citizens and Traditional Practices get hammered.
Firearms Owners or others that are seen to threaten the New Order are especially disliked.