Thread: E cat safe/safe room options

Originally Posted by systolic

Recorded during a security inspection when Winters relicensed. Like my post said.

Yes, I read it. But what good was that considering they didn't have the firearm from the scene?

Originally Posted by Savage1

Only if you consider anything but a 100% success rate a failure, which would be stupid.

That's my point...

Not everyone is going to register their firearms either, just like not everyone is going to record their firearm serials when largely encouraged. Also just like not everyone is going to not speed.
100% compliance will never happen with ANYTHING, but that doesn't make registration any more effective than personally recording your own serials which are then handed to police if stolen.

We're adults, not children and we're fed up all being treating like children because of the few people who act like children.

Originally Posted by Jexla

That's my point...

Not everyone is going to register their firearms either, just like not everyone is going to record their firearm serials when largely encouraged. Also just like not everyone is going to not speed.
100% compliance will never happen with ANYTHING, but that doesn't make registration any more effective than personally recording your own serials which are then handed to police if stolen.

We're adults, not criminals and we're fed up all being treating like criminals because of the few people who act like criminals

fixed that for you.

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

fixed that for you.

Yeah that's exactly what I was saying ;P

Originally Posted by Jexla

That's my point...

Not everyone is going to register their firearms either, just like not everyone is going to record their firearm serials when largely encouraged. Also just like not everyone is going to not speed.
100% compliance will never happen with ANYTHING, but that doesn't make registration any more effective than personally recording your own serials which are then handed to police if stolen.

We're adults, not children and we're fed up all being treating like children because of the few people who act like children.

So just because there won't be 100% compliance doesn't make it pointless, I would think that registration compliance would be a lot higher than people that keep their own records up to date and available. Keeping your own records won't deter people from selling to nefarious people either.

If you believe you've been treated like a criminal by Police then I don't think you've ever been dealt with as a criminal by Police. I rarely deal with FAL holders as criminals, I often deal with adults who're acting like children and I do often see FAL holders acting/posting like children.

Originally Posted by Savage1

So just because there won't be 100% compliance doesn't make it pointless, I would think that registration compliance would be a lot higher than people that keep their own records up to date and available. Keeping your own records won't deter people from selling to nefarious people either.

But is the cost and effort of setting-up/administering/maintaining a registry worth it to deter people from selling to nefarious people? Of all the ways crims can get hold of guns, what proportion come from naughty sales?

Originally Posted by stretch

But is the cost and effort of setting-up/administering/maintaining a registry worth it to deter people from selling to nefarious people? Of all the ways crims can get hold of guns, what proportion come from naughty sales?

That's all unknowns really, I do think more come from 'naughty sales' than people think.

What about customs checking 1 in 10 shipping containers or whatever it is. That's a joke. Surely that would contribute numbers to the black market?

As for claiming that the govt wouldn't bother to come get our guns - What if a future government put a total ban on MSSA's what resources do you think they will use to track down where they are???

Lets face it @Savage1 firearm registration sucks balls.

Originally Posted by Savage1

So just because there won't be 100% compliance doesn't make it pointless, I would think that registration compliance would be a lot higher than people that keep their own records up to date and available. Keeping your own records won't deter people from selling to nefarious people either.

If you believe you've been treated like a criminal by Police then I don't think you've ever been dealt with as a criminal by Police. I rarely deal with FAL holders as criminals, I often deal with adults who're acting like children and I do often see FAL holders acting/posting like children.

I'd disagree, I'd say more people would keep records of their own than would register all firearms. We could even make it a requirement that you keep records of serial numbers and have to give them to police in the event. Although this may deter people who haven't done so from reporting it which wouldn't be good.

So because I disagree with you I am acting/posting like a child? Get out of here, you're taking the piss now.

Originally Posted by Savage1

That's all unknowns really, I do think more come from 'naughty sales' than people think.

These "Naughty sales" raise another point. How many firearms "disappeared" when the MSSA came in? Or when Aussie did its major buy back / ban? From what I hear from a plumber from Oz that used to work where I work, that year he sold out of large diameter PVC and end caps as fast as he could source them. (Heresay I realise...), and pre MSSA rifles such as the mini 14 with the 30rnd mags, 10/22s with the bananas and SKS unaltered ones that were now only able to be sold to the black market as they could not be sold on the open market.

If these laws were enacted PRIOR to these types of firearms entering the country then it would be workable (Whether it is right or wrong is not the point) but introducing a ban or change like this has several affects, 1) these firearms that are already here become harder to sell legitimately, and harder to buy legitimately 2) the price lowers for illegitimate sales as there is no longer legitimate sales point to compete with. For example, think in the early 90s when the SKS first hit the market at $299. They sold like hotcakes, cheap, reliable and cheap to feed with milsurp ammo. Then they change the rules to say 7 rounds only. Options spend $100 (or there about at the time) to modify it, spend $200 on an endorsement each year (pointless when you want a cheap rifle) or flick it off at $200 to "someone at the pub" who doesn't mind the problem. While I do not know of any myself that vanished, I also only know of a few that were altered to A-cat. So how many SKS rifles made it to E cat, how many were imported and how many vanished? And was this what the law maker actually wanted to happen? (I guess No is that answer)

Final big question: Did this law change encourage less or more rifles went into criminal hands?

@Jexla, the childish comment wasn't aimed at you or anybody else in particular, I actually think your style of post has somewhat improved lately but with a few still being unnecessarily obtuse, but I guess that's just your style.

The problem with your idea is that it doesn't discourage a FAL holder from buying legally and selling to unlicenced people, which would be one of the main goals of a database.

Decent firearms are actually worth more on the black market, paticulary amongst gangs who have huge amounts of cash available, pistols are 5-10k+. But yes if you're outside those circles it would be hard to get that kind of money for them.

As for your final question @timattalon I'm not sure anyone could answer that with any kind of certainty.

Serious question regarding dodgy sales. Wiĺl registration deter gang members from selling off or having their guns stolen? If it is to get a patch or raise their status in the gang, are they gonna care if they get caught, especially with our wet bus ticket sentencing? Is their not something that can be addressed to prevent such people being deemed fit and proper?

As per the Striesand effect*, I think a national registration will cause people to panic buy and stockpile A-cat "untraceable" firearms that will persist for a long time

Hell, there's still a few WW2 Luger pistols floating around that are totally illegal

Keep in mind that the tools we use as firearms owners can easily persist in a working state for nigh on a hundred years if properly maintained - my back-up bush gun has 1942 stamped on the side and will go for another 50+ years if I don't let it rust


Also, given police's track record on maintaining databases I flat out do not trust their competence or financial probity since the INCIS debacle - a national database will be too unwieldy, too leakable and probably poorly maintained and untimely in its updates or useability

Otherwise, a fuckin great idea



*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Originally Posted by Savage1

@Jexla,
The problem with your idea is that it doesn't discourage a FAL holder from buying legally and selling to unlicenced people, which would be one of the main goals of a database.

Decent firearms are actually worth more on the black market, paticulary amongst gangs who have huge amounts of cash available, pistols are 5-10k+. But yes if you're outside those circles it would be hard to get that kind of money for them.

.

Repercussions (such as prison and big fines)are the only deterrent to people who would do such a thing. The database would do nothing. The pool of black market firearms are where they would come from, if 60% compliance (what I've read Canada achieved after a quarter century), then at 40% of 3 million firearms, that's 1.2 million black market circulation.

I still see no point in creating more bureaucracy that will do nothing to those who would flaunt it. Enforce the laws we already have.

Another thing to consider, people speak as if we have a massive problem with gun crime, but other than inner city shit kickers robbing liquor stores, and drug dealers having a stash of guns, where are all the shootings? Yes there are probably a reasonable amount of guns in criminal hands but by far and large they seem to be sitting unused, not a direct threat to the public at large.