Thread: Feeling sick after reading this !

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

Why not? The ATF will help as well as European manufacturers/Agencies. https://www.cdpp.gov.au/case-reports...g-machine-guns https://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...dc870258fadfef

That is still not the supplier though. If the NZP rocked up to a European supplier and said "tell me who you sold xxx too" they'd politely tell the NZP to eff off. NZP have no authority there, and most western countries have privacy laws that limit the sharing of such information except with local law enforcement AND in most cases would require some sort of court order or warrant - and that would likely need indications of a crime being committed in the originating country.

Releasing of such information could expose suppliers to privacy lawsuits.

The exception to that rule would be the example you've posted above, where it is likely a crime has been committed on the other end - in that case exporting machine guns probably requires a special permit. So the ATF would naturally have been interested.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

That is still not the supplier though. If the NZP rocked up to a European supplier and said "tell me who you sold xxx too" they'd politely tell the NZP to eff off. NZP have no authority there, and most western countries have privacy laws that limit the sharing of such information except with local law enforcement AND in most cases would require some sort of court order or warrant - and that would likely need indications of a crime being committed in the originating country.

Releasing of such information could expose suppliers to privacy lawsuits.

It’s not necessarily the NZP contacting them directly, it could be done indirectly through INTERPOL from within that country who have a bit more sway.

It all depends on what has actually occurred in order for the manufacturer to be contacted and again will that manufacturer freely divulge that information or will a court order be required.

Originally Posted by Coop

My call do to what exactly? You're clearly being antagonising but I'm not gonna take the bait. Have fun with that.

well you seem to take offence and imply Ive taken aim at your store...... oh dear,it couldnt happen.... yeah right.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

That is still not the supplier though. If the NZP rocked up to a European supplier and said "tell me who you sold xxx too" they'd politely tell the NZP to eff off. NZP have no authority there, and most western countries have privacy laws that limit the sharing of such information except with local law enforcement AND in most cases would require some sort of court order or warrant - and that would likely need indications of a crime being committed in the originating country.

Releasing of such information could expose suppliers to privacy lawsuits.

The exception to that rule would be the example you've posted above, where it is likely a crime has been committed on the other end - in that case exporting machine guns probably requires a special permit. So the ATF would naturally have been interested.

You will find ITAR makes exporting without correct paperwork a crime for firearms in general.

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

You will find ITAR makes exporting without correct paperwork a crime for firearms in general.

Remind me to raise that with the African warlords and south american dictators next time I see them. Having said that, if they have even heard of ITAR is a moot question if they give a rats arse. It's only the countries where influential people and those with an eye to the next easy meal ticket job that seem to give a crap about the UN.

There’s an article on the Herald website this morning about a straw buyer subtitled “How gangs get their guns”, but it’s a paywall one so can’t read much

Originally Posted by Cigar

There’s an article on the Herald website this morning about a straw buyer subtitled “How gangs get their guns”, but it’s a paywall one so can’t read much

Hit job which tells me the Regulator (NZ Police) are up to no good, no doubt justifying the 500% increase in Fees etc. Look for our friend Cahill to be behind the author.

Originally Posted by BSA

Hit job which tells me the Regulator (NZ Police) are up to no good, no doubt justifying the 500% increase in Fees etc. Look for our friend Cahill to be behind the author.

I disagree. I just finished reading the article. There was one point that annoyed me, the bit where they talked about an AK-47, which would be illegal in NZ as they are fully automatic (even before the 2019 laws).

The new police guy in charge of the register actually sounds reasonable:

The project is being led by Superintendent Richard Wilson, who concedes that in the past the police have not fulfilled their obligations under the Arms Act as effectively as they should.

...

“The key for police is to make sure that we keep everyone’s details really secure, so the firearms community isn’t targeted,” says Wilson, referring to concerns the national register could fall into the wrong hands. “Because the pressure will come on.”

The article is mostly about straw buyers, license holders who buy firearms then flick them onto gangs. And mostly about this guy Grond.

And interestingly, for a different point of view, the police are expecting once they close the straw buyer loophole they expect the gangs to switch to things like burglaries, ram raiding dealers etc. Not a single mention of fees.

It's a reasonable well written article, not the crap you usually see in stuff - plus it has some interesting and valid points from the police.

My thoughts also.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

I disagree. I just finished reading the article. There was one point that annoyed me, the bit where they talked about an AK-47, which would be illegal in NZ as they are fully automatic (even before the 2019 laws).

The new police guy in charge of the register actually sounds reasonable:



The article is mostly about straw buyers, license holders who buy firearms then flick them onto gangs. And mostly about this guy Grond.

And interestingly, for a different point of view, the police are expecting once they close the straw buyer loophole they expect the gangs to switch to things like burglaries, ram raiding dealers etc. Not a single mention of fees.

It's a reasonable well written article, not the crap you usually see in stuff - plus it has some interesting and valid points from the police.

Now there is a big surprise.....

It's a reasonable well written article, not the crap you usually see in stuff - plus it has some interesting and valid points from the police

In The Herald actually but I digress, this article from the BFD blog site covers that article far better than I can explain without writing a novel myself. As I said it is a Hit Piece.

https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/01/16/poli...ed-up-as-news/

I would also recommend Firearms Owners apply some critical thinking, it is an Election year and we are going to be vilified yet again to cover for vast inadequacies by Govt/Police in the criminal sector. This comment from a Firearms Owner I thought very well put.

Joe Grond, quite a distinctive name, 22, labourer, able to afford expensive guns.
Despite my enquires to the Auckland collector fraternity, including dealers this guy is not known.
I find this hard to believe given the "facts" presented in the article.
My opinion is this chicken manure story is a plant from police with no charges being mentioned and it seems there are no back articles mentioning the arrest of Grong from 2019 or 2020.
This story smells as bad as the chicken manure writing.

Note to Angela Brazier, it is high time you stopped this sort of nonsense.
You are the boss you must realise that targeting firearms owners as "criminals in waiting" is and will severely damage any sort of relationship you want with firearms owners

I was going to refrain from commenting, but BSA has opened the gate.

The police have been trying to build the case that all guns in criminal hands come from licensed firearm owners, not from any other source.

I think Nicole Mckee got from Coster an admission that they actually only know where a small proportoo of guns have come from, and they are now trying to say "well - that is where all the guns come from" - and now this article very conveniently is produced.

I read the news very well, and had clearly missed any prior reporting of that case, and it just seemed to convenient in light of recent comments from the police and politicians.

A quick google search will provide some background.

Now - a Joseph Grond did sign a petition for COLFO - so this article could all be true, but WHY was the case previously unreported. The media, for this sort of public interest case would have been all over it. The police would have ensured there was coverage of it.

I read the article, and it didnt read right, in fact it stinks, there is a distinct lack of realism to it, ie lack of dates.

I would hope for the medias credibilty that this article was fact checked first, for me the jory is out - however it is a good plausible "story"

Yeah nah, I still disagree. If you read the article as a whole, it's not that way. If you take a few clips out without context of the rest of the article you can make it look that way, which the bfd have done.

There was also this guy: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...g-guns-to-gang so Police aren't imagining things.

Originally Posted by Ranger 888

Surely, the condition (a) (i) indicates that ownership is NOT an absolute right.

No right is absolute. But a FAL is like a driving license: if you pass the test and are physically and mentally fit to drive you SHALL be issued a driving license upon application, and if you don't get it, you can take New Zealand Transport Agency, or whatever they are called now, to court.

The point is, you have the right by default, exceptions prove a right, exceptions do not disprove a right.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

Yeah nah, I still disagree. If you read the article as a whole, it's not that way. If you take a few clips out without context of the rest of the article you can make it look that way, which the bfd have done.

There was also this guy: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...g-guns-to-gang so Police aren't imagining things.

Yet another guy that would not have had a FAL if a diligent background check had been conducted.