Thread: Feeling sick after reading this !

Originally Posted by gmm

My understanding is one of the reasons the Government want a register is that they believe that firearms used by criminals come from licenced firearm owners and that if they can maintain a record of these will prevent or limit the supply. The major flaw in this is that there are many firearms which will never be registered, and it will do very little if anything to prevent gun crime or prevent criminals having access to firearms. We all know this, and I suggest so do the Government, but they have an agenda and an objective.

Source of supply in my belief has nothing to do with the establishment of a registry, if source of supply was a concern then every transaction that required a mail order purchase form, permit to procure or import slip over the previous years would be being followed up and verified as correct. It's arguable that the basics aren't being done prior to the establishment of a registry - and the question has to be asked "why?". One can only make assumptions on this as the questions I've seen asked as to what happened to and where are these records have appeared to have been either avoided or deflected (information not available etc etc). If the information isn't available, what was the point of the importation forms for one as these should have largely given the majority of the lifecycle (import, sale, disposal) for firearms imported since the requirement came into being.

It would seem that at this stage the only possible benefit (and that is of no proveable and realisable benefit to licence holders themselves) for a registry is increasing the cost of the ownership of firearms. The claimed benefits have already been debunked by the overseas experience, and the idea that it will stop criminals who have been given firearms licences from passing firearms onto other criminals is incorrect. The flaws in the idea are many and blatantly obvious, and everywhere else that's tried it has found nothing but difficulties, which include no real reduction in firearms crime that can be related to the existence of the registry but several crimes that can be directly linked to it.

Second thing against the registry in it's current form, is that of the list of NZ Govt departments who have a really rough record of technology project implementation - the top two or three of that list from anyone you care to ask would invariably include the NZ Police. Better chance of success if any other department was running it based purely on previous performance.

Yes it could go both ways. It may actually prove that the majority of criminal firearms do not come LFAOs.

If you think about it there are two sources of firearms from LFAOs, those who willingly onsell to the likes of gangs, and those whos firearms are stolen.

In the onselling situation as firearms sales are now recorded, those firearms are traceable and as we have seen over the last couple of years that leads to those selling them being prosecuted. But there have been less than a handful of cases indicating this is not widespread.

With regards to the stolen firearms, most LFAOs will report stolen firearms (at the very least for insurance claims if nothing else). We have never seen police put out stats around recovered stolen firearms - and you can guarantee if these were showing a correlation the police would've published the numbers. But at the end of the day a register is not going change this if it was a source of firearms for crims anyway.

What will be interesting is after 1 year doing an OIA for recovered firearms statistics, e.g. how many stolen firearms were recovered and traceable in the register. In fact it may be more revealing about how effective the police are, and potentially customs (e.g. if they start recovering firearms that have no NZ 'trail' of ownership).

As LFAOs there is an opportunity here to use the register to prove what we are saying, to reveal the truths and shut down the lies. It's coming whether we like or not, so lets make the best of it.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

With regards to the stolen firearms, most LFAOs will report stolen firearms (at the very least for insurance claims if nothing else). We have never seen police put out stats around recovered stolen firearms - and you can guarantee if these were showing a correlation the police would've published the numbers. But at the end of the day a register is not going change this if it was a source of firearms for crims anyway.

Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favour of a register as it WON’T prevent guns from being stolen but it will help identify where guns have come from IF they still have their serial numbers.

You don’t need to hack into a register to steal info, just steal the sign in book from you local pistol range as that’s been done and match it up with a phone book as that’s been recently done or sit outside a pistol club and note down regos as that happened to my old club 25 years ago… I can even cruise around my town and see everyone who has guns based on their hunting/shooting decals they have in the back windows of their vehicles as that’s a proven tool for some burglars.

[QUOTE=Seventenths;1401024]Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!

A good point - I have put on my weekend list the task of setting up a spreadsheet and adding the new guns in with numbers

Re this point
Yes it could go both ways. It may actually prove that the majority of criminal firearms do not come LFAOs.

If you think about it there are two sources of firearms from LFAOs, those who willingly onsell to the likes of gangs, and those whos firearms are stolen.

In the onselling situation as firearms sales are now recorded, those firearms are traceable and as we have seen over the last couple of years that leads to those selling them being prosecuted. But there have been less than a handful of cases indicating this is not widespread.

With regards to the stolen firearms, most LFAOs will report stolen firearms (at the very least for insurance claims if nothing else). We have never seen police put out stats around recovered stolen firearms - and you can guarantee if these were showing a correlation the police would've published the numbers. But at the end of the day a register is not going change this if it was a source of firearms for crims anyway.

What will be interesting is after 1 year doing an OIA for recovered firearms statistics, e.g. how many stolen firearms were recovered and traceable in the register. In fact it may be more revealing about how effective the police are, and potentially customs (e.g. if they start recovering firearms that have no NZ 'trail' of ownership).

As LFAOs there is an opportunity here to use the register to prove what we are saying, to reveal the truths and shut down the lies. It's coming whether we like or not, so lets make the best of it.

I understand the idea but do not accept that a registry will be better as it is my belief that registration will, like the confiscations, cause more firearms to go "dark"

I believe that when faced with the prospect of registering and especially if this new authority show any sign of charging more for how many rifles you have, good ol' kiwi tightness will kick in and people won't register large proportions of what they have
Also factoring in laziness/inertia it is my belief that a lot of people don't keep up with govt legislation and largely don't care so just won't bother

If a register does become law (and I will fight it tooth and nail) then there has got to be a way to get dark guns onto the register which is smooth, easy and with little cost or consequence to the person bringing them in to the fold or people just won't bother and we will end up with a situation where people have got unregistered guns that cost them say x amount of dollars, the cops will say you can hand it in and we will destroy it but we'll prosecute you if you don't so there will be some people who look at it as 'well the cops will give me nothing and the mongrel mob will give me 2 grand so fuck it'

I could well be wrong but I have a bad feeling that we are going to find out...

Originally Posted by Seventenths

Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!

Can you point me in the direction of the source of this information?

hows a bouts the stuff report on the incident in chch where someone caught young kids shooting at ducks in jellie park with a BB gun ,then a parrie found with a crossbow bolt through its neck.Police response typically vague.WHAT ABOUT SOME EARNEST APPROACHES TO HOLDS ADULTS RESPONSIBLE FOR KIDS BEHAVIOUR ????????????-oh i forgot you cant make headlines/political advantage over childrens antsocial behaviour can we-- tuis anyone???

A point not discussed (that I’ve noticed):
Gun is registered and police have details of registered gun.
Gun gets illegally sold to criminal
Later police decide to conduct a random audit a persons firearms
“Where’s the shotgun registered xxxyyy, I don’t see it in your safe”

Suddenly some creative explaining is needed.

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

A point not discussed (that I’ve noticed):
Gun is registered and police have details of registered gun.
Gun gets illegally sold to criminal
Later police decide to conduct a random audit a persons firearms
“Where’s the shotgun registered xxxyyy, I don’t see it in your safe”

Suddenly some creative explaining is needed.

"Well I went online and reported it lost off a boat and removed it from my chit - why is it still on my record?".

NZ has also signed up to the convention that if a firearm is involved in a crime it is to be destroyed. So why bother with serial numbers or a register? The victim is involved in a crime. In that way a stolen firearm is involved in a crime (it was stolen- theft is a crime) therefore it will not be returned to the owner but is to be destroyed. Or am I misreading the situation?

[QUOTE=308;1401043]

Originally Posted by Seventenths

Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!


I believe that when faced with the prospect of registering and especially if this new authority show any sign of charging more for how many rifles you have, good ol' kiwi tightness will kick in and people won't register large proportions of what they have
Also factoring in laziness/inertia it is my belief that a lot of people don't keep up with govt legislation and largely don't care so just won't bother

If a register does become law (and I will fight it tooth and nail) then there has got to be a way to get dark guns onto the register which is smooth, easy and with little cost or consequence to the person bringing them in to the fold or people just won't bother and we will end up with a situation where people have got unregistered guns that cost them say x amount of dollars, the cops will say you can hand it in and we will destroy it but we'll prosecute you if you don't so there will be some people who look at it as 'well the cops will give me nothing and the mongrel mob will give me 2 grand so fuck it'

I could well be wrong but I have a bad feeling that we are going to find out...

I suspect that this is far scloser to the truth that we want to accept. Another point is that with the current paperwork for mail order sale of firearms making it such a huge pain in the arse to get processed, I know a number of situations where people wont bother. The uptake in peer to peer transport has effectively meant the police have now cut themselves out of most of the transactions. It has also pushed peple away from sites like trade me and back into word of mouth / I know a guy...(think pub conversations of old) which will actually make the police job even harder.

Their knee jerk reactions will have long term ramifications that will achieve the very opposite of what they wanted. I know this because I used to use the Police forms easily and with confidence, but in 2019 when they changed the system to what it is now (before Tarrant) I saw flaws in the process. The Police form is meant as a way for the seller to be able to verify the buyer has a FAL by getting the Police to check it for the seller. This new system needs the sellers address and licence number to be given to the buyer BEFORE the buyer goes to the police. Thus if a gang member signs up to trade me and buys a rifle online, the seller HAS to send his address and firearm serials FAL number etc to the buyer so he can get the police form. With this buyer being a gang member - no police form in needed so they dont go to the police- instead they go directly to the address provided by the seller and pick it up along with everything else in the locker for free.....And the police wonder why I prefer NOT to use their system.

And the best part....WHY does the seller need their own address and FAL details on the form? As a seller, if I need to know what my address is I will go and look at my letter box and if I need my FAL details I will open my wallet and look at it!

Originally Posted by 308

I suspect that this is far scloser to the truth that we want to accept. Another point is that with the current paperwork for mail order sale of firearms making it such a huge pain in the arse to get processed, I know a number of situations where people wont bother. The uptake in peer to peer transport has effectively meant the police have now cut themselves out of most of the transactions. It has also pushed peple away from sites like trade me and back into word of mouth / I know a guy...(think pub conversations of old) which will actually make the police job even harder.

Their knee jerk reactions will have long term ramifications that will achieve the very opposite of what they wanted. I know this because I used to use the Police forms easily and with confidence, but in 2019 when they changed the system to what it is now (before Tarrant) I saw flaws in the process. The Police form is meant as a way for the seller to be able to verify the buyer has a FAL by getting the Police to check it for the seller. This new system needs the sellers address and licence number to be given to the buyer BEFORE the buyer goes to the police. Thus if a gang member signs up to trade me and buys a rifle online, the seller HAS to send his address and firearm serials FAL number etc to the buyer so he can get the police form. With this buyer being a gang member - no police form in needed so they dont go to the police- instead they go directly to the address provided by the seller and pick it up along with everything else in the locker for free.....And the police wonder why I prefer NOT to use their system.

And the best part....WHY does the seller need their own address and FAL details on the form? As a seller, if I need to know what my address is I will go and look at my letter box and if I need my FAL details I will open my wallet and look at it!

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

Originally Posted by Coop

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

I’m not sure that’s actually the case as TM require you to initially enter your F/lic which is then kept against your profile so each time you ask a question or go to buy a firearm you need to re enter those details to match up with what they have.

Why would police or a government department share personal information with a privately owned business?

Originally Posted by Seventenths

I’m not sure that’s actually the case as TM require you to initially enter your F/lic which is then kept against your profile so each time you ask a question or go to buy a firearm you need to re enter those details to match up with what they have.

Why would police or a government department share personal information with a privately owned business?

It doesn't share the info. All it does is verify your details are correct. So you bang in your name and FAL in and it comes back as a simple YES/NO that you are a real person with a FAL.

Originally Posted by Coop

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

A mate of mine saw an ornamental miniature cannon on RetardMe a few years ago, it was totally inoperable and made from soldered together empty shell cases.
Mate wanted to ask dimensions (or some similar innocuous question) and was told he needed to supply his firearm licence number to ask that question.
Needless to say that was the end of THAT!

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

A mate of mine saw an ornamental miniature cannon on RetardMe a few years ago, it was totally inoperable and made from soldered together empty shell cases.
Mate wanted to ask dimensions (or some similar innocuous question) and was told he needed to supply his firearm licence number to ask that question.
Needless to say that was the end of THAT!

The system is all automated... The seller would have had their own licence and had it for sale in the firearms section where TM assumes everything requires a licence. You can't expect TM to have a human sit down and go over every listing when they are made and make sure it has licence required turned on or off.

Originally Posted by Coop

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

Not quite. You need to have access to a valid FAL number (ANY valid license will do and if it is not their own all the better...) There is no way that trademe can confirm that the person who is online is the actual holder of said FAL. easy scenario- how many people have had scans or copied taken of their license? If you have access to a scan of someone elses license all you need is the full name and number and you can sign up to trademe and pretend to be that person. Honest people call this fraud....dishonest people call this easy. And remember it is the honest people who are NOT the problem. The only thing tradme checks is that the name on the trademe account matches the license.

The really frightening thing here is that you do not have to misplace your license for someone to do this- If you lose your phone or laptop that has access to trademe- in fact you dont even need to misplace it- just leave it somewhere someone can access it for a few minutes......bingo they can buy it under your name....and they can change the trademe email address to one they can use too....