Thread: Feeling sick after reading this !

Originally Posted by vulcannz

With regards to the stolen firearms, most LFAOs will report stolen firearms (at the very least for insurance claims if nothing else). We have never seen police put out stats around recovered stolen firearms - and you can guarantee if these were showing a correlation the police would've published the numbers. But at the end of the day a register is not going change this if it was a source of firearms for crims anyway.

Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favour of a register as it WON’T prevent guns from being stolen but it will help identify where guns have come from IF they still have their serial numbers.

You don’t need to hack into a register to steal info, just steal the sign in book from you local pistol range as that’s been done and match it up with a phone book as that’s been recently done or sit outside a pistol club and note down regos as that happened to my old club 25 years ago… I can even cruise around my town and see everyone who has guns based on their hunting/shooting decals they have in the back windows of their vehicles as that’s a proven tool for some burglars.

[QUOTE=Seventenths;1401024]Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!

A good point - I have put on my weekend list the task of setting up a spreadsheet and adding the new guns in with numbers

Re this point
Yes it could go both ways. It may actually prove that the majority of criminal firearms do not come LFAOs.

If you think about it there are two sources of firearms from LFAOs, those who willingly onsell to the likes of gangs, and those whos firearms are stolen.

In the onselling situation as firearms sales are now recorded, those firearms are traceable and as we have seen over the last couple of years that leads to those selling them being prosecuted. But there have been less than a handful of cases indicating this is not widespread.

With regards to the stolen firearms, most LFAOs will report stolen firearms (at the very least for insurance claims if nothing else). We have never seen police put out stats around recovered stolen firearms - and you can guarantee if these were showing a correlation the police would've published the numbers. But at the end of the day a register is not going change this if it was a source of firearms for crims anyway.

What will be interesting is after 1 year doing an OIA for recovered firearms statistics, e.g. how many stolen firearms were recovered and traceable in the register. In fact it may be more revealing about how effective the police are, and potentially customs (e.g. if they start recovering firearms that have no NZ 'trail' of ownership).

As LFAOs there is an opportunity here to use the register to prove what we are saying, to reveal the truths and shut down the lies. It's coming whether we like or not, so lets make the best of it.

I understand the idea but do not accept that a registry will be better as it is my belief that registration will, like the confiscations, cause more firearms to go "dark"

I believe that when faced with the prospect of registering and especially if this new authority show any sign of charging more for how many rifles you have, good ol' kiwi tightness will kick in and people won't register large proportions of what they have
Also factoring in laziness/inertia it is my belief that a lot of people don't keep up with govt legislation and largely don't care so just won't bother

If a register does become law (and I will fight it tooth and nail) then there has got to be a way to get dark guns onto the register which is smooth, easy and with little cost or consequence to the person bringing them in to the fold or people just won't bother and we will end up with a situation where people have got unregistered guns that cost them say x amount of dollars, the cops will say you can hand it in and we will destroy it but we'll prosecute you if you don't so there will be some people who look at it as 'well the cops will give me nothing and the mongrel mob will give me 2 grand so fuck it'

I could well be wrong but I have a bad feeling that we are going to find out...

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Regarding Mabey, Jenner, Dallison, and the other collector presently in the system, theses were all registered firearms on endorsements. So a register isn't going to prevent this happening.
Where ever you have people you will find corruption. You only have to look at the crooked stuff that happens in religious circles. One area you think would be free of it.
Ten years is a long time for human behaviour to be static for some. But for 95 percent of us it's fine.

Yes & No, Mabey had on sold all his restricted firearms (130 +) to a gang and reported them stolen, Jenner converted E cat to A cat and sold them, the other collector before the courts i mention has sold A cat firearms.

I agree with you in people being corrupt as there are plenty of studies to show that, one study showed me that 70% of people would steal if they knew they could get away with it, another example is look at insurance data re cars being hit/damaged by other motorists parking their vehicles in shopping centres etc, how many motorists leave a note with their details admitting fault... extremely small percentage.

Originally Posted by Seventenths

Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!

Can you point me in the direction of the source of this information?

Originally Posted by small_caliber

I am unsure why anyone has a firearms license if it isn't to legally purchase a firearms.
Yes things happen in people's lives, and a huge number of the people that go through those problems don't sell firearms to criminals, but if some do and they remove the serial numbers from those firearms they sell before they sell them, when will the police discover they are selling firearms to criminals? A register won't stop that.

How many of the firearms recovered from criminals by police have serial numbers?
If they have had the serial number removed, how are they going to trace them to anyone?
I would say the police have recovered, in the last year, more firearms from criminals than the ones you mentioned sold to the criminals and given the number of guns recovered if they were coming from licensed firearms owners then there would clearly be a marked increase in prosecutions, yet we don't see many prosecuted for supplying the criminals with firearms, why is that?

It's pretty simple and something none of the advocates for the register here have answered. So please inform us?

If not you can always organise a break in and theft. As far as I can remember it's been done by more than one with B/C cat.

Originally Posted by small_caliber

I am unsure why anyone has a firearms license if it isn't to legally purchase a firearms......

Also, of course, to legally own or have in your possession a firearm.

I remember back in the registration days that it was often that recovered stolen firearms had their serial numbers removed. Don't know if our current lot of criminals would bother to do that unless they want to cover up that it was an illegal import.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Don't know if our current lot of criminals would bother to do that unless they want to cover up that it was an illegal import.

Your joking right?

If the firearm is already stolen what sense is there in removal of serial number? Regardless of if it is marked or removed it is still unlawfully in possession for probably 99.9% of firearms offences

hows a bouts the stuff report on the incident in chch where someone caught young kids shooting at ducks in jellie park with a BB gun ,then a parrie found with a crossbow bolt through its neck.Police response typically vague.WHAT ABOUT SOME EARNEST APPROACHES TO HOLDS ADULTS RESPONSIBLE FOR KIDS BEHAVIOUR ????????????-oh i forgot you cant make headlines/political advantage over childrens antsocial behaviour can we-- tuis anyone???

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

Your joking right?

Half joking, it was just a random thought. They couldn't care less I would think.

Originally Posted by Preacher

If the firearm is already stolen what sense is there in removal of serial number? Regardless of if it is marked or removed it is still unlawfully in possession for probably 99.9% of firearms offences

I agree totally.

Originally Posted by Cordite

You are deluded. Go test your rights, maybe carry a short sword next time you go shopping with your wife.

No don't go Short Sword go Denis the Menis hand full of pebbles in pocket and a SlingShot

A point not discussed (that I’ve noticed):
Gun is registered and police have details of registered gun.
Gun gets illegally sold to criminal
Later police decide to conduct a random audit a persons firearms
“Where’s the shotgun registered xxxyyy, I don’t see it in your safe”

Suddenly some creative explaining is needed.

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

A point not discussed (that I’ve noticed):
Gun is registered and police have details of registered gun.
Gun gets illegally sold to criminal
Later police decide to conduct a random audit a persons firearms
“Where’s the shotgun registered xxxyyy, I don’t see it in your safe”

Suddenly some creative explaining is needed.

"Well I went online and reported it lost off a boat and removed it from my chit - why is it still on my record?".

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Half joking, it was just a random thought. They couldn't care less I would think.

Some of you would make terrible criminals...

1. It traces the FA back to it's theft so an instant "Receiving" charge guarantee to be added.
2. Ties you to the people who stole it as possible associates if they were caught later.
3. It may have been used in a previous crime and could be tied back to this (see above) and then implicate you.
4. Most importantly if you were an unscrupulous FAL holder selling on the black market you will definitely remove the numbers.
5. If they are illegally imported the number can be used to trace your supplier.

If you don't care and of course No 4 doesn't apply then the register well only assist returning the gun to it's former owner if stolen. Most likely in a bubberised state so probably not much help.

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

5. If they are illegally imported the number can be used to trace your supplier.

How? If the supplier is off shore they have no legal requirement to supply information to the NZP. And given privacy laws in some regions it may be easier for that supplier not to supply the information.