Thread: Feeling sick after reading this !

[/QUOTE]I would say the police have recovered, in the last year, more firearms from criminals than the ones you mentioned sold to the criminals and given the number of guns recovered if they were coming from licensed firearms owners then there would clearly be a marked increase in prosecutions, yet we don't see many prosecuted for supplying the criminals with firearms, why is that?[/QUOTE]

Over the past year there have been a lot of LFO's caught and prosecuted for selling to gangs, its just not reported on Stuff or the likes. I always though Cahill was talking shit when he said crims got guns from LFO's, sadly it appears that he was correct.

I would say the police have recovered, in the last year, more firearms from criminals than the ones you mentioned sold to the criminals and given the number of guns recovered if they were coming from licensed firearms owners then there would clearly be a marked increase in prosecutions, yet we don't see many prosecuted for supplying the criminals with firearms, why is that?[/QUOTE]

Over the past year there have been a lot of LFO's caught and prosecuted for selling to gangs, its just not reported on Stuff or the likes. I always though Cahill was talking shit when he said crims got guns from LFO's, sadly it appears that he was correct.[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard anecdotal stories that the ‘buy back’ accentuated that.
A bit of ‘I can’t keep this rifle and the gangs are prepared to pay more for it than the Government will’ sort of thing

NZ has also signed up to the convention that if a firearm is involved in a crime it is to be destroyed. So why bother with serial numbers or a register? The victim is involved in a crime. In that way a stolen firearm is involved in a crime (it was stolen- theft is a crime) therefore it will not be returned to the owner but is to be destroyed. Or am I misreading the situation?

[QUOTE=308;1401043]

Originally Posted by Seventenths

Most firearms reported stolen aren’t reported with their serial numbers as the owners don’t know or don’t keep records of the serial numbers. How many people honestly keep a record of all their property which has serial numbers… very, very few!


I believe that when faced with the prospect of registering and especially if this new authority show any sign of charging more for how many rifles you have, good ol' kiwi tightness will kick in and people won't register large proportions of what they have
Also factoring in laziness/inertia it is my belief that a lot of people don't keep up with govt legislation and largely don't care so just won't bother

If a register does become law (and I will fight it tooth and nail) then there has got to be a way to get dark guns onto the register which is smooth, easy and with little cost or consequence to the person bringing them in to the fold or people just won't bother and we will end up with a situation where people have got unregistered guns that cost them say x amount of dollars, the cops will say you can hand it in and we will destroy it but we'll prosecute you if you don't so there will be some people who look at it as 'well the cops will give me nothing and the mongrel mob will give me 2 grand so fuck it'

I could well be wrong but I have a bad feeling that we are going to find out...

I suspect that this is far scloser to the truth that we want to accept. Another point is that with the current paperwork for mail order sale of firearms making it such a huge pain in the arse to get processed, I know a number of situations where people wont bother. The uptake in peer to peer transport has effectively meant the police have now cut themselves out of most of the transactions. It has also pushed peple away from sites like trade me and back into word of mouth / I know a guy...(think pub conversations of old) which will actually make the police job even harder.

Their knee jerk reactions will have long term ramifications that will achieve the very opposite of what they wanted. I know this because I used to use the Police forms easily and with confidence, but in 2019 when they changed the system to what it is now (before Tarrant) I saw flaws in the process. The Police form is meant as a way for the seller to be able to verify the buyer has a FAL by getting the Police to check it for the seller. This new system needs the sellers address and licence number to be given to the buyer BEFORE the buyer goes to the police. Thus if a gang member signs up to trade me and buys a rifle online, the seller HAS to send his address and firearm serials FAL number etc to the buyer so he can get the police form. With this buyer being a gang member - no police form in needed so they dont go to the police- instead they go directly to the address provided by the seller and pick it up along with everything else in the locker for free.....And the police wonder why I prefer NOT to use their system.

And the best part....WHY does the seller need their own address and FAL details on the form? As a seller, if I need to know what my address is I will go and look at my letter box and if I need my FAL details I will open my wallet and look at it!

Originally Posted by 308

I suspect that this is far scloser to the truth that we want to accept. Another point is that with the current paperwork for mail order sale of firearms making it such a huge pain in the arse to get processed, I know a number of situations where people wont bother. The uptake in peer to peer transport has effectively meant the police have now cut themselves out of most of the transactions. It has also pushed peple away from sites like trade me and back into word of mouth / I know a guy...(think pub conversations of old) which will actually make the police job even harder.

Their knee jerk reactions will have long term ramifications that will achieve the very opposite of what they wanted. I know this because I used to use the Police forms easily and with confidence, but in 2019 when they changed the system to what it is now (before Tarrant) I saw flaws in the process. The Police form is meant as a way for the seller to be able to verify the buyer has a FAL by getting the Police to check it for the seller. This new system needs the sellers address and licence number to be given to the buyer BEFORE the buyer goes to the police. Thus if a gang member signs up to trade me and buys a rifle online, the seller HAS to send his address and firearm serials FAL number etc to the buyer so he can get the police form. With this buyer being a gang member - no police form in needed so they dont go to the police- instead they go directly to the address provided by the seller and pick it up along with everything else in the locker for free.....And the police wonder why I prefer NOT to use their system.

And the best part....WHY does the seller need their own address and FAL details on the form? As a seller, if I need to know what my address is I will go and look at my letter box and if I need my FAL details I will open my wallet and look at it!

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

Originally Posted by Coop

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

I’m not sure that’s actually the case as TM require you to initially enter your F/lic which is then kept against your profile so each time you ask a question or go to buy a firearm you need to re enter those details to match up with what they have.

Why would police or a government department share personal information with a privately owned business?

Originally Posted by Coop

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

A mate of mine saw an ornamental miniature cannon on RetardMe a few years ago, it was totally inoperable and made from soldered together empty shell cases.
Mate wanted to ask dimensions (or some similar innocuous question) and was told he needed to supply his firearm licence number to ask that question.
Needless to say that was the end of THAT!

pushbikes used to have a serial number on them...not sure if they still do??? didnt stop them being stolen,or any easier to recover them either. possibly they could be returned to owner if number was recorded... wonder if a stolen car that gets used in a crime/ramraid will also be destroyed??? and if so,who pays origonal owner for it???

Originally Posted by Seventenths

I’m not sure that’s actually the case as TM require you to initially enter your F/lic which is then kept against your profile so each time you ask a question or go to buy a firearm you need to re enter those details to match up with what they have.

Why would police or a government department share personal information with a privately owned business?

It doesn't share the info. All it does is verify your details are correct. So you bang in your name and FAL in and it comes back as a simple YES/NO that you are a real person with a FAL.

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

A mate of mine saw an ornamental miniature cannon on RetardMe a few years ago, it was totally inoperable and made from soldered together empty shell cases.
Mate wanted to ask dimensions (or some similar innocuous question) and was told he needed to supply his firearm licence number to ask that question.
Needless to say that was the end of THAT!

The system is all automated... The seller would have had their own licence and had it for sale in the firearms section where TM assumes everything requires a licence. You can't expect TM to have a human sit down and go over every listing when they are made and make sure it has licence required turned on or off.

Originally Posted by Coop

You need to have a current FAL to use Trademe to buy firearms. They have a system where you put in your FAL#, full name and maybe address? Not too sure on last one. If they don't 100% match what the Police have on file then it comes back as a "NO" and you can't do anything on any listing requiring a FAL.

So it's not as if any random person can just sign up to Trademe and click buy now on a firearm and then know your address.

Not quite. You need to have access to a valid FAL number (ANY valid license will do and if it is not their own all the better...) There is no way that trademe can confirm that the person who is online is the actual holder of said FAL. easy scenario- how many people have had scans or copied taken of their license? If you have access to a scan of someone elses license all you need is the full name and number and you can sign up to trademe and pretend to be that person. Honest people call this fraud....dishonest people call this easy. And remember it is the honest people who are NOT the problem. The only thing tradme checks is that the name on the trademe account matches the license.

The really frightening thing here is that you do not have to misplace your license for someone to do this- If you lose your phone or laptop that has access to trademe- in fact you dont even need to misplace it- just leave it somewhere someone can access it for a few minutes......bingo they can buy it under your name....and they can change the trademe email address to one they can use too....

and how many employees of a large retail chain have access to the "book under the counter" with lists of firearms licence numbers...two seconds to take photo on phone.....

I can also tell of an owner of a franchise of large retail chain who has/had very strong connections to a gang..even used gang member for business debt collection....
but thats all OK ...apparently......

Yes, the loopholes are many and frightening - and every step taken to 'improve' the system seems to make it more easily advantaged. I had a mate fall foul with an online site, sold a firearm and requested the mail order documentation as per the requirements. Not forthcoming... Money was there quicksmart in his account though. Mate did the right thing, refused to send the firearm until paperwork supplied to verify buyer's license - but paperwork still didn't arrive. Next step, mate gets a call from Trademe enquiring what the go was, why hadn't he completed the transaction? He patiently explained the situation, said by law he couldn't send it until the required Police mail order paperwork was supplied and if the buyer couldn't supply it he would refund the payment and cancel the auction/apply for return of the fee.

This is where it gets funky, Trademe girl starts having a go and orders the mate to complete the transaction as per Trademe's terms and conditions! Mate says 'excuse you, your terms and conditions state that all firearms auctions and sales must comply with the requirements of the Arms Act...' - which is where that argument descended into a idiot's guide to achieving not a lot. I think he contacted the Police Arms guys to let them know, and ended up finally getting bank details off the buyer to refund the payment. I'm not too sure of the finer points of the rest of how that ended, but it was as dodgy as F...

Basically, that's a long winded way of saying Trademe no longer has a customer from me mate and quite right from him to - total shit show from them and any system of theirs is a crap shoot at the best of times. I know of another guy who couldn't use trademe for a while as his licence number failed the check tool for a while. They told him he wasn't licenced, he's looking at his licence going huh? Smack me head...

Originally Posted by No.3

Yes, the loopholes are many and frightening - and every step taken to 'improve' the system seems to make it more easily advantaged. I had a mate fall foul with an online site, sold a firearm and requested the mail order documentation as per the requirements. Not forthcoming... Money was there quicksmart in his account though. Mate did the right thing, refused to send the firearm until paperwork supplied to verify buyer's license - but paperwork still didn't arrive. Next step, mate gets a call from Trademe enquiring what the go was, why hadn't he completed the transaction? He patiently explained the situation, said by law he couldn't send it until the required Police mail order paperwork was supplied and if the buyer couldn't supply it he would refund the payment and cancel the auction/apply for return of the fee.

This is where it gets funky, Trademe girl starts having a go and orders the mate to complete the transaction as per Trademe's terms and conditions! Mate says 'excuse you, your terms and conditions state that all firearms auctions and sales must comply with the requirements of the Arms Act...' - which is where that argument descended into a idiot's guide to achieving not a lot. I think he contacted the Police Arms guys to let them know, and ended up finally getting bank details off the buyer to refund the payment. I'm not too sure of the finer points of the rest of how that ended, but it was as dodgy as F...

Basically, that's a long winded way of saying Trademe no longer has a customer from me mate and quite right from him to - total shit show from them and any system of theirs is a crap shoot at the best of times. I know of another guy who couldn't use trademe for a while as his licence number failed the check tool for a while. They told him he wasn't licenced, he's looking at his licence going huh? Smack me head...

That smells like trademe girl was involved

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

pushbikes used to have a serial number on them...not sure if they still do???

Yes they do and iirc a number of bike shops offer serial tracking services (and some other security marking I think?)