Thread: Feeling sick after reading this !

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and how many employees of a large retail chain have access to the "book under the counter" with lists of firearms licence numbers...two seconds to take photo on phone.....

That's pretty insulting implying our staff, who most hold their own FAL, would do that.

Originally Posted by No.3

Yes, the loopholes are many and frightening - and every step taken to 'improve' the system seems to make it more easily advantaged. I had a mate fall foul with an online site, sold a firearm and requested the mail order documentation as per the requirements. Not forthcoming... Money was there quicksmart in his account though. Mate did the right thing, refused to send the firearm until paperwork supplied to verify buyer's license - but paperwork still didn't arrive. Next step, mate gets a call from Trademe enquiring what the go was, why hadn't he completed the transaction? He patiently explained the situation, said by law he couldn't send it until the required Police mail order paperwork was supplied and if the buyer couldn't supply it he would refund the payment and cancel the auction/apply for return of the fee.

This is where it gets funky, Trademe girl starts having a go and orders the mate to complete the transaction as per Trademe's terms and conditions! Mate says 'excuse you, your terms and conditions state that all firearms auctions and sales must comply with the requirements of the Arms Act...' - which is where that argument descended into a idiot's guide to achieving not a lot. I think he contacted the Police Arms guys to let them know, and ended up finally getting bank details off the buyer to refund the payment. I'm not too sure of the finer points of the rest of how that ended, but it was as dodgy as F...

Basically, that's a long winded way of saying Trademe no longer has a customer from me mate and quite right from him to - total shit show from them and any system of theirs is a crap shoot at the best of times. I know of another guy who couldn't use trademe for a while as his licence number failed the check tool for a while. They told him he wasn't licenced, he's looking at his licence going huh? Smack me head...

I sold an air rifle on trade me a while ago, I stated "Pick up only" as I didn't want postage hassles but didn't tick the appropriate box. The winner demanded I send it and he deemed that a webcam photo of him holding his drivers licence was enough proof of age. I wasn't sure as there is no proof that it wasn't a random person and was in the process of checking with the arms officer weather a permit was required. Within 2 days TM was on the phone to me demanding that I complete the trade, they wouldn't listen to reason until I told them that all my calls are recorded and I'll be emailing the police with the recording and a statement that they are pushing FA sales without following procedure. Back then even the AO didn't have a firm answer weather or not a permit was required for an air rifle purchase.

Originally Posted by Coop

That's pretty insulting implying our staff, who most hold their own FAL, would do that.

Almost a moot point now that it is digital. But in saying that I agree wholeheartedly with you that 99.9% of staff are perfectly fine and would never dream of doing that and that the security in the store will normally be pretty good now.....but that one person is all it takes and that one person may not even need to be staff member in some of the smaller businesses I saw. Also it would not be out of the possibility for said paperwork to be stolen in a ram raid...digital in that case is more secure.

Originally Posted by No good names left

I sold an air rifle on trade me a while ago, I stated "Pick up only" as I didn't want postage hassles but didn't tick the appropriate box. The winner demanded I send it and he deemed that a webcam photo of him holding his drivers licence was enough proof of age. I wasn't sure as there is no proof that it wasn't a random person and was in the process of checking with the arms officer weather a permit was required. Within 2 days TM was on the phone to me demanding that I complete the trade, they wouldn't listen to reason until I told them that all my calls are recorded and I'll be emailing the police with the recording and a statement that they are pushing FA sales without following procedure. Back then even the AO didn't have a firm answer weather or not a permit was required for an air rifle purchase.

All you need is a legal verification that they are over 18. A police form can be used for that and I have done that in the past. Make sure the DOB is on it and the form if ID that is used (usually NZDL or passport) However a photocopy of their ID, signed by a JP or sworn officer is (or used to be) acceptable too. What you are looking for is proof that they are over 18. The officer or JP signing it is stating that the buyer has proven to them (on your behalf) that they are over 18. The actual piece of paper that is signed must then be posted to you. That way you can see the stamp and signature is real and not a scanned copy. A scan and email is not acceptable as these are easy to alter digitally and impossible for you to verify they are real. If you have further doubts you are still entitled to refuse to complete the transaction and refund the money paid.

It would be interesting to split out pistols as a separate category - excluding cut down firearms. If we could then see how many of the pistols police recovered, then see how many of those were stolen or fenced by a license holder - the difference would imply the number coming in via freight - or on fishing boats etc. My instinct is that a vast majority of pistols in circulation with gangs would be illegal imports. Why would a gang bother to conceal and import a semi shotgun when they can access them here? On the other hand a pistol is a scarce commodity. And for most of us law abiding people - including police - I'm guessing that bumping in to a crim with a concealed pistol is a far more dangerous and likely thing than seeing one wandering around with a semi shotgun? I accept that for police doing search warrants etc - the risk of running into an illegal MSSA or similar is most concerning, whereas for many it would be the risk of someone pulling out a pistol - or knife. I saw in the paper that a gang member recently prosecuted in Rotorua said he would buy 100 9mm pistols the same as the sample he was shown.....

Originally Posted by timattalon

Almost a moot point now that it is digital. But in saying that I agree wholeheartedly with you that 99.9% of staff are perfectly fine and would never dream of doing that and that the security in the store will normally be pretty good now.....but that one person is all it takes and that one person may not even need to be staff member in some of the smaller businesses I saw. Also it would not be out of the possibility for said paperwork to be stolen in a ram raid...digital in that case is more secure.

Begs the question on how good their IT security is. The average kiwi small/medium business leaves a lot to be desired, though most cannot be blamed as they get someone else in to do it. imho a paper book system would be far more secure than what NZ SMBs can acheive.

Originally Posted by Coop

That's pretty insulting implying our staff, who most hold their own FAL, would do that.

I never stated WHICH large retail store...but if the shoe fits and you feel guilty..well thats your issue then isnt it...
are you 100% confident ALL of the staff in ALL of the franchise stores are above reproach,dont have drug habits or gambling debts??? are you 100% positive none of your franchise owners dont have gang connections??? if you are I have a bridge to sell you.

AND you will note I HAVE NOT MENTIONED your store by name....seems those who do get banned quick smartly.
and if moderators have an issue with this..I'm more than happy to go on record to them with names and details...will follow that up with police if you really want to push issue...
your call @Coop

Originally Posted by Northkiwi

It would be interesting to split out pistols as a separate category - excluding cut down firearms. If we could then see how many of the pistols police recovered, then see how many of those were stolen or fenced by a license holder - the difference would imply the number coming in via freight - or on fishing boats etc. My instinct is that a vast majority of pistols in circulation with gangs would be illegal imports. Why would a gang bother to conceal and import a semi shotgun when they can access them here? On the other hand a pistol is a scarce commodity. And for most of us law abiding people - including police - I'm guessing that bumping in to a crim with a concealed pistol is a far more dangerous and likely thing than seeing one wandering around with a semi shotgun? I accept that for police doing search warrants etc - the risk of running into an illegal MSSA or similar is most concerning, whereas for many it would be the risk of someone pulling out a pistol - or knife. I saw in the paper that a gang member recently prosecuted in Rotorua said he would buy 100 9mm pistols the same as the sample he was shown.....

There was one article recently that showed a make and model of pistol recovered by Police that's only been made in the last few years - it would stand to reason that it would have to be on the register if it was a legal import but the details were not in the article. I can't find it now, which is a little annoying.

Originally Posted by No good names left

I sold an air rifle on trade me a while ago, I stated "Pick up only" as I didn't want postage hassles but didn't tick the appropriate box. The winner demanded I send it and he deemed that a webcam photo of him holding his drivers licence was enough proof of age. I wasn't sure as there is no proof that it wasn't a random person and was in the process of checking with the arms officer weather a permit was required. Within 2 days TM was on the phone to me demanding that I complete the trade, they wouldn't listen to reason until I told them that all my calls are recorded and I'll be emailing the police with the recording and a statement that they are pushing FA sales without following procedure. Back then even the AO didn't have a firm answer weather or not a permit was required for an air rifle purchase.

I add a line to anything I sell online now (auction or otherwise) that states that Police and age requirements must be met. Reason for that is that the sellers terms and conditions listed in the auction description are the legal 'sellers terms of sale' and if there's an issue that goes to legal side it's there in black and white not buried in the site terms and conditions. Thats after the drama my mate had with his auction sale...

Originally Posted by vulcannz

Begs the question on how good their IT security is. The average kiwi small/medium business leaves a lot to be desired, though most cannot be blamed as they get someone else in to do it. imho a paper book system would be far more secure than what NZ SMBs can acheive.

@vulcannz NZ SMBs can achieve digital security. To access my digital record they would have to steal the computer which is much heavier than the book and old enough to look like its worthless. Digital does not mean online. I am not sure what the 'not connected to the internet' term is but I believe airgapped might be close. That is not to say other companies do the same. Larger ones are probably interconnected but also have the budget for more expensive / extensive digital security. But SMBs without that budget do not require a great deal of computing power to operate a relatively simple data spreadsheet, though I would suggest laptops are not ideal- even old ones are easily stolen, and two, if they shit themselves it becomes unrecoverable. But the AO was quite adamant that as long as the info is retained and accessible when needed he is happy. (And by accessible- I give him hard copy on paper if he asks...)

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

AND you will note I HAVE NOT MENTIONED your store by name....seems those who do get banned quick smartly.
and if moderators have an issue with this..I'm more than happy to go on record to them with names and details...will follow that up with police if you really want to push issue...
your call @Coop

My call do to what exactly? You're clearly being antagonising but I'm not gonna take the bait. Have fun with that.

Originally Posted by Coop

That's pretty insulting implying our staff, who most hold their own FAL, would do that.

Where ever you have people involved there is always greed & temptation.

Also remember it wasn’t that long ago you had the owner of a H&F store involved in drug dealing!

Originally Posted by Coop

My call do to what exactly? You're clearly being antagonising but I'm not gonna take the bait. Have fun with that.

Please dont take any offence at this remark as that is not the intention. I think it perfectly reasonable to accept that in certain situations staff, or more likely even owners of businesses could be 'pressured' sufficiently to release details / information from their records. As could Govt employees and anyone with access to data bases

Originally Posted by vulcannz

How? If the supplier is off shore they have no legal requirement to supply information to the NZP. And given privacy laws in some regions it may be easier for that supplier not to supply the information.

Why not? The ATF will help as well as European manufacturers/Agencies. https://www.cdpp.gov.au/case-reports...g-machine-guns https://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...dc870258fadfef

Also interesting https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...tralia/6483762