Thread: Firearms Storage Inspection ....

Originally Posted by Savage1

I just don't think an A cat licence is strict enough to own those types of weapons.

You mean guns which are functionally identical to A cat guns, just cosmetically different, considering that anyone who has enough disregard for the law to be a murderer is going to have no qualms about using their rifle in an illegal configuration

Originally Posted by gimp

E cat:
-requires $200 fee There is talk of them waiving the fee for the change over.
-requires $1000+ safe - is there actually any evidence to suggest that it prevents theft more than a standard safe, to justify the burden of cost on law abiding shooters? You can get one for $4-500
-can't loan my rifle to a friend
-can't even get my friend to take my rifle to a gunsmith Actually you can.
-can't sell my rifle easily Yes you can
-can't buy another rifle easily Yes you can
-can't import parts for my rifle. I want to try a different pistol grip to see if I like it better? FUCK YOU HAND IN YOUR OLD ONE SO WE CAN DESTROY THIS PIECE OF PROPERTY YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO OWN BEFORE WE GIVE YOU AN IMPORT PERMIT Yes you can

A cat:
-I can do all of the above
-If I am a scumbag asshole murderer, I shouldn't have an A-cat but if I do I can just as easily get an E-cat, or just use my A-cat guns to be a scumbag asshole murderer

So we should just remove all difficulties for anyone to own a firearm?

Originally Posted by Savage1

If I was going to be pedantic I would say, don't be stupid MSSA's are everywhere, it's just the term that is unique to NZ. Like saying beer only exists in English speaking countries.

First of all Aramoana happened before our current laws were bought into place so can only really be used to support the changes made as it obviously wasn't working prior, if you use that example. Port Arthur was overseas, not under our laws at the time so can't be used to disprove our restrictions.

Mental problems can be very hard to detect and quite often go on without ever being diagnosed, how could you ever expect an AO to pick up on it?

The Crimes Act 1961
Summary Offences Act 1981
Misuse of Drugs Act 1975
All 'horribly outdated'? They're all older than the current Arms Act.

No MSSA's aren't everywhere. Semi auto rifles may be common everywhere, but MSSAs aren't.

Are you trying to say that before 1992 you could have mental issues and get a license? That doesn't accord with my understanding. Because that it the point I'm making, the problem is the wrong people got a FAL. The correct reaction is to improve vetting (which was done). A range of pointless restrictions based on looks was not required.

Port Arthur and aramoana both have key similarities you don't seem to want to hear. People who shouldn't have had FALs were given them. Chaos resulted. The changes to vetting practice made sense, the MSSA BS does not.

Vetting is supposed to give the greatest chance of picking up mental issues, by interviewing those closest to the applicant. Are you trying to say that we may as well give up, since it is hard to pick mental issues anyway, and just rely on banning scary looking guns? I don't think you are, but there does seem to be a lack of consistency in your reasoning.

I can even see why you'd think that about the various Acts you list. I agree that the enactment date of the principal acts you cite are older. The real question I'd ask is how many substantial updates were made to those principal acts since their enactment? Then how many changes were made to the MSSA provisions of the Arms act in the same time? I'd suggest that is a more accurate way to compare the currency between them.

I still think the semi auto rules are outdated, and don't reflect where the world has moved to. As more and more people adopt semi platforms, that view is held by more and more people.

Originally Posted by Savage1

So we should just remove all difficulties for anyone to own a firearm?

We should remove difficulties for a person who has been considered fit and proper to own 2 functionally identical but cosmetically different firearms, considering that the laws don't actually stop anyone who wants to use them for a nefarious purpose from doing so in the slightest

selling and buying requires permit to procure on behalf of the buyer and potential registry fuckups by police staff (these happen all the time). Not as easy as A cat and a much reduced pool of potential buyers which makes it harder to sell.

I can't let a friend who doesn't have his E possess my E rifle to take it to the gunsmith. That would be illegal as I understand the law. I get mates to drop shit at the smith all the time for me, and vice versa.

The handin policy is literally as I described, unless it has been canned (as it should be for being utterly ridiculous bullshit)

Originally Posted by gimp

E cat:
-requires $200 fee not if doing another endorsement at same time
-requires $1000+ safe $500+, i think security requirements should be stricter across the board anyway
-can't loan my rifle to a friend what? he can get his own, deadbeat! haha
-can't even get my friend to take my rifle to a gunsmith what? lol surely you are not that lazy
-can't sell my rifle easily did u buy it to use it or sell it? (cant comment, never tried to sell Ecat)
-can't buy another rifle easily not hard at all
-can't import parts for my rifle. I want to try a different pistol grip to see if I like it better? hand in rules all changed afaik, this is kinda a non issue from what i can tell
A cat:
-I can do all of the above
-If I am a scumbag asshole murderer, I shouldn't have an A-cat but if I do I can just as easily get an E-cat, or just use my A-cat guns to be a scumbag asshole murdererthis is where the law needs some attention

has there been any murders done by a licenced firearm owners using firearms they are legally entitled to own?

Originally Posted by Haydendev

has there been any murders done by a licenced firearm owners using firearms they are legally entitled to own?

Yes, but mostly garden variety man-kills-friend-or-acquaintance-over-dispute type murders where if they didn't have a gun they'd have used a bar stool or garden fork or whatever

As I keep repeating, you are either "FIT AND PROPER" to have a firearms licence or you ARE NOT.
There are not levels of "Fit and Properness" as some would have you believe.

Personally I think the Mountain Safety Firearms lecture is too biased toward hunting and does not properly cover all firearm types/ actions.
I would argue a licence holder SHOULD know how to check a firearm OF ANY TYPE is unloaded and safe ( I include handguns here even though most FAL most likely will never need or have the opportunity to handle them they shoudl still know how to check they are unloaded and made safer)

I do not agree that a simple locked wooden box is a suitable "secure storage" for any firearm but nor do I think an "E" spec'ed safe should be mandatory for an A Firearms licence.

My view is if you are FIT and Proper you should be able to own and use any firearm for whatever (legal) purpose you wish but it should be secured against theft to a better std than we currently have.

It makes not a jot of difference to me what it looks like, all firearms were originally designed to do the same thing.

If you are stupid or foolish and bad things happen deal with the consequences then. I don't like people stopping me from doing something just in case some idiot trys it and get hurt.

As you can guess I am a big supporter of the Darwin Theory, best way to thin out idiots is to let them do it themselves, its cheaper.

Originally Posted by mikee

Personally I think the Mountain Safety Firearms lecture is too biased toward hunting

Absolutely, hunting is not the only legitimate use of a firearm but the licensing process is almost entirely focused on hunting.

I do not agree that a simple locked wooden box is a suitable "secure storage" for any firearm but nor do I think an "E" spec'ed safe should be mandatory for an A Firearms licence.

Is there any evidence at all that an E rated safe actually prevents theft any more effectively than a standard buffalo river type steel cabinet, to justify the cost??


Where are these mythical $500 E rated safes? Last time I checked I couldn't get anything for less than $1000

Originally Posted by gimp

Is there any evidence at all that an E rated safe actually prevents theft any more effectively than a standard buffalo river type steel cabinet, to justify the cost??


Where are these mythical $500 E rated safes? Last time I checked I couldn't get anything for less than $1000

Nope, thats what I was meaning, I paid 1500 for my E safe, never did manage to find a cheap one with the correct certs for the AO

Originally Posted by Savage1

Source, my own observations.

People change, more inspections and contact with the AO can only help pick up on problems, add in more reference checks I don't see a downside. Small price to pay in my views.

Just to be clear, I'm not against E-Cat, I just don't think an A cat licence is strict enough to own those types of weapons.

Brilliant Savage. Thanks for your support haha. I was starting to feel very lonely in my stance
Straight up, the process of acquiring an A-cat license in NZ is waaay to easy, with MSC testing officers 'helping' applicants to pass and police AOs doing referee "interviews" by phone. I've also heard multiple ppl on this forum and elsewhere stating the AO never checked their safe nor firearms! How am I or any other member of the NZ public supposed to have confidence in our system to vet and confirm that someone is "fit and proper" for E-cat?

Further, except for the initial purchase of a firearm from a retailer, what do the police know about who owns what or who sold it to who? The current system is a joke and as much as I love firearms, like fine cars and motorcycles, I am fearful of who might be in possession of any type of firearm, but especially rapid fire styles.
Additionally, regarding mental health, things can happen in our lives. Ppl can get depressed, or become highly volatile through anger. Is ten years too long between police checks to verify you're of sound mind and judgement? I think so


Identify your target beyond all doubt! Sorry won't cut it later and no deer is worth the fall out. Safe and happy hunting

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

Brilliant Savage. Thanks for your support haha. I was starting to feel very lonely in my stance
Straight up, the process of acquiring an A-cat license in NZ is waaay to easy, with MSC testing officers 'helping' applicants to pass and police AOs doing referee "interviews" by phone. I've also heard multiple ppl on this forum and elsewhere stating the AO never checked their safe nor firearms! How am I or any other member of the NZ public supposed to have confidence in our system to vet and confirm that someone is "fit and proper" for E-cat?

Further, except for the initial purchase of a firearm from a retailer, what do the police know about who owns what or who sold it to who? The current system is a joke and as much as I love firearms, like fine cars and motorcycles, I am fearful of who might be in possession of any type of firearm, but especially rapid fire styles.
Additionally, regarding mental health, things can happen in our lives. Ppl can get depressed, or become highly volatile through anger. Is ten years too long between police checks to verify you're of sound mind and judgement? I think so


Identify your target beyond all doubt! Sorry won't cut it later and no deer is worth the fall out. Safe and happy hunting

Interesting, you obviously have no clue about those of us who hold other endorsements. I have been "visited" and had my Security checked yearly for as long as I can remember. Either I am special or my local AO is very organised, thorough and quite frankly a pleasure to deal with or he has too much free time. Ditto from what I hear from other endorsement holders in the area too

Mikee, I concede that some AOs will be much more conscientious and diligent that others. And you're 100% correct that I am indeed unfamiliar with the technicalities of E-cat follow up. I'm relieved to hear at least your AO is doing a good job.
I'm not on the attack, but we are by nature products of experience. And my experience of renewing my A license about 7 years ago was so lax, it really put the shits up me


Identify your target beyond all doubt! Sorry won't cut it later and no deer is worth the fall out. Safe and happy hunting

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

It's simple for me really gimp... No-one needs them. I do understand the desire to shoot them for fun (& have done so myself while touring Vietnam and Cambodia... AK47s are awesome fun!). But no 'individual' should have any right to keep them at home in NZ. I think a few select contract helicopter culling operators should be able to argue their case for ownership, but I still maintain... No one NEEDS them, and only military forces should (IMO) have access to them.

You really are the worst kind of gun owner. You don't like black scary guns, so you'll happily line up to push those who do under the legislative bus, as long as they promise not to touch your precious bolt action.

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

As for rimfire SAs Beavis... Again, unnecessary for 'hunting' and in practise, they teach bad habits anyway. This isn't about me and the moral high ground, but I started out with a BSA single shot opn sighted .22. Every shot counted and I learned real quick that if I couldn't achieve a one shot kill (head), don't take the shot. So when it came time to get a more sporty rifle with a magazine, I bought a ten shot bolt action and learned to work the bolt quickly when needed for multiple animals. One day I took all five hares in a family bunch before the last made it to the safety of the scrub. So, as said above, if you're any good at shooting, you don't need a semi auto (shotguns for game birds excluded)

"Look guys, I like to compete in 100m sprints with anvils tied to my legs! It's obviously a severe handicap in this kind of event, but IMO if you don't do it, it means you are bad at sprinting! I don't see why anyone needs Nike running shoes!"

I was gonna type up a big wordy response with arguments and such but I'm tired so I decided I'd just tell you to fuck off, gas cut your fudd-stick in half and take up knitting.

Unless you also feel that wood is all you need for knitting needles, and no-one needs large alloy needles to knit a sweater?

Originally Posted by gimp

Where are these mythical $500 E rated safes? Last time I checked I couldn't get anything for less than $1000

EDGE SECURITY 5 GUN E-CAT APPROVED SAFE/CAB - GREY | Trade Me

i got mine for $490 not including shipping

Originally Posted by Hunt4life

Mikee, I concede that some AOs will be much more conscientious and diligent that others. And you're 100% correct that I am indeed unfamiliar with the technicalities of E-cat follow up. I'm relieved to hear at least your AO is doing a good job.
I'm not on the attack, but we are by nature products of experience. And my experience of renewing my A license about 7 years ago was so lax, it really put the shits up me


Identify your target beyond all doubt! Sorry won't cut it later and no deer is worth the fall out. Safe and happy hunting

i have found the same as mikee for endorsed licenses down here, and know plenty of ppl who get regular visits each year.