Thread: Hunter convicted

Civilization is a thin veneer indeed, I completely agree, and thats why the rule of law and justice system are so important, without it everyone (even if an initial victor) is the loser. Perfect it ain't, but if you'd like everything (well most things) settled how the "gangs" do it, and according to a similar outlook . . . . .

If you want to see how it works study a few Careless/Dangerous driving cases, the kid on the footpath is one scenario, but what about the poor bugger who isn't quick enough to avoid hitting a woman stepping out from behind a car on a dark rainy night in a 100 km/h area . . . you want a lynch mob deciding if its your freedom on the line??

I agree with you tentman, but being soft is just as bad, if not worse. The laws the law and should be closer to black and white, than always grey!

Originally Posted by Maca49

I agree with you tentman, but being soft is just as bad, if not worse. The laws the law and should be closer to black and white, than always grey!

there in lies the rub. This world is shades of grey throughout. Nothing is truly black and white as there is always another side to the story. Truth may be exactly what happened, but what the mind of each person sees will colour the truth through their eyes. they will subconsciously or intentionally form their view of who is at fault and their opinion of what they saw will be coloured by this perspective.

Our justice system is broken. Are there worse ones Definitely. Could ours be better? Definitely. But every system has its own problems and is urs the best of what we can get....Maybe.

Our justice system is broken.

Not even close.... that would require the majority of outcomes to be inappropriate, and all you lot are talking about is the headlines, statistical outliers, or your own personal experiences which are hardly statistically reliable and certainly not both sides of any story.

It's no surprise to me that public perspective is distorted, all you know is bad news and no one reports on what functions well. The reality is that on the whole we are well served by the system that we have.

Secondly the amount of ignorance about the role that the courts provide to the community is simply staggering. The lack of understanding of the function of the law, or the roles of the legal profession, let alone the legal requirements to consider issues more than just a victims perspective. Not only is that binding on Judges but profoundly in the interests of the rest of society and for a longer term view...

What is also staggering is the punitive/deterrent mindset of the public in this country. We have more in prison than we have ever had, we have the 2nd largest incarceration rate in the Western world, and the bleaters still can't quite work out that repeating stuff that isn't working is the absolute indication of madness...

There seems to be an underlying perverted idea that if the "justice system" was working then criminals would stop being criminals, hunters would not get shot by their mates, and cars wouldn't leave the road for the footpath with traumatic results. News flash, thats your fault - thats the peoples fault and it starts with individual and community attitudes. Attempting to lay that at the feet of the "justice system" is absolutely missing the point.

Its poor parenting, not caring for your neighbours, not supporting those who need it, not holding your mates and relatives to account for them being dicks, and sitting back and blaming the justice system for the failings.

Convenient but stupid....

Originally Posted by Sidney

Not even close.... that would require the majority of outcomes to be inappropriate, and all you lot are talking about is the headlines, statistical outliers, or your own personal experiences which are hardly statistically reliable and certainly not both sides of any story.

It's no surprise to me that public perspective is distorted, all you know is bad news and no one reports on what functions well. The reality is that on the whole we are well served by the system that we have. Very likely knowing the quality of media reporting in this country.....

Secondly the amount of ignorance about the role that the courts provide to the community is simply staggering. The lack of understanding of the function of the law, or the roles of the legal profession, let alone the legal requirements to consider issues more than just a victims perspective. Not only is that binding on Judges but profoundly in the interests of the rest of society and for a longer term view...

What is also staggering is the punitive/deterrent mindset of the public in this country. We have more in prison than we have ever had, we have the 2nd largest incarceration rate in the Western world, and the bleaters still can't quite work out that repeating stuff that isn't working is the absolute indication of madness...Disagree in that Yes it seems to defy logic, but they need to do the time for the crime. Not locking them away rewards them with their freedom thereby encouraging MORE of the offences rather than less. Police chases is another situation we hear of more now. Why? because these clowns know that if they drive like they will kill someone, then the cops wont chase them. Thus they drive like this knowing they can escape. If they were chased down EVERY time, and actually punished, they would start to learn that it is not worth running. By the logic of the "dont lock em up brigade", we can stop every police chase, simply by NOT chasing anyone who runs and we can all get away. second point- they are not Police pursuits. They are FLEEING DRIVERS!!!!.

There seems to be an underlying perverted idea that if the "justice system" was working then criminals would stop being criminals, hunters would not get shot by their mates, and cars wouldn't leave the road for the footpath with traumatic results. News flash, thats your fault - thats the peoples fault and it starts with individual and community attitudes. Attempting to lay that at the feet of the "justice system" is absolutely missing the point. I sort of agree here. It is not the justice systems fault that criminals behave like criminals, but it is the justice sytem at fault if it lets them get away with it, thereby encouraging and rewarding this behaviour.

Its poor parenting, not caring for your neighbours, not supporting those who need it, not holding your mates and relatives to account for them being dicks, and sitting back and blaming the justice system for the failings. Absolutely 100% SPOT ON. Those who choose to be criminals, those who choose to break the law are completely the ones at fault. And those that enable, encourage and reward must wear the blame as well. Bad parenting choices, lack of discipline, lack of boundaries and lack of consequences all contribute to this, but the blame remains with those who chose to commit crime.
Convenient but stupid....

In some of this statement I dont agree, but in others I do.

Personal responsibility seems to be a quality that is greatly lacking in our society. Where do people learn personal responsibilities, consequences and boundaries?

Originally Posted by Sidney

Not even close.... that would require the majority of outcomes to be inappropriate, and all you lot are talking about is the headlines, statistical outliers, or your own personal experiences which are hardly statistically reliable and certainly not both sides of any story.

It's no surprise to me that public perspective is distorted, all you know is bad news and no one reports on what functions well. The reality is that on the whole we are well served by the system that we have.

Secondly the amount of ignorance about the role that the courts provide to the community is simply staggering. The lack of understanding of the function of the law, or the roles of the legal profession, let alone the legal requirements to consider issues more than just a victims perspective. Not only is that binding on Judges but profoundly in the interests of the rest of society and for a longer term view...

What is also staggering is the punitive/deterrent mindset of the public in this country. We have more in prison than we have ever had, we have the 2nd largest incarceration rate in the Western world, and the bleaters still can't quite work out that repeating stuff that isn't working is the absolute indication of madness...

There seems to be an underlying perverted idea that if the "justice system" was working then criminals would stop being criminals, hunters would not get shot by their mates, and cars wouldn't leave the road for the footpath with traumatic results. News flash, thats your fault - thats the peoples fault and it starts with individual and community attitudes. Attempting to lay that at the feet of the "justice system" is absolutely missing the point.

Its poor parenting, not caring for your neighbours, not supporting those who need it, not holding your mates and relatives to account for them being dicks, and sitting back and blaming the justice system for the failings.

Convenient but stupid....

@Sidney

You maintain our justice system is not broken? Who, then, incarcerates all those people???

By your reasonable definition, if most incarcerations are inappropriate outcomes, the system is "broken".

I digress, wonder how a justice system would work with no custodial sentencing available. Hopefully more restitution / actual victim compensation, with the odd execution (or exile to Kapiti Island).

Originally Posted by Cordite

@Sidney

You maintain our justice system is not broken? Who, then, incarcerates all those people???

By your reasonable definition, if most incarcerations are inappropriate outcomes, the system is "broken".

I digress, wonder how a justice system would work with no custodial sentencing available. Hopefully more restitution / actual victim compensation, with the odd execution (or exile to Kapiti Island).

Cant do that Cordite, it impinges on the criminal rights. One things for sure, if we had no criminals, the income generated by them would stuff many peoples lives!

Originally Posted by Cordite

@Sidney

You maintain our justice system is not broken? Who, then, incarcerates all those people???

By your reasonable definition, if most incarcerations are inappropriate outcomes, the system is "broken".

I digress, wonder how a justice system would work with no custodial sentencing available. Hopefully more restitution / actual victim compensation, with the odd execution (or exile to Kapiti Island).

We cannot ship the to Kapiti.....I thought that was what New South Wales was for....

If a judge sentences someone to a fine of say $500 rather than to pay the victim $500, the system has lost its way.

A custodial sentence for theft is similarly nothing to do with "justice". Similarly, assault victims deserve compensation too.

IMHO community work should be reimbursed at the minimum wage less tax, paid to the victim, until an appropriate sum of compensation is reached.

As for any permanent "criminal record"... not sure who it helps.

On another note, here is Michael Moore's Norwegian vision of how Kapiti Island may be repurposed, the tangata whenua there graciously permitting:

It's clear, that everyone here "Is" united in one thing at least; Improvement over whatever it is,that we Do have..World-wide statistics Do exist, the Evidence IS out there, but huge gaps Exist in all of our mind-sets. Any Govt. that tries to implement Any form of radical-change, will get slaughtered by the 'Status-Quo'; our own voices here, are ample evidence of that. We pretty-much rigidly follow the English/Aussie and sometimes US model, we are Not independent in any real way. Even The Reserve Bank has a say in things that we would never dream, that they had any interest-in, or sway over. We now have the American NSA, pulling major strings here, and as in the US, that will eventually lead to an errosion of 'Judicial-Standards'. The somewhat-appearing, 'simplistic and commonsense-world' of our grandparents-era', has long-gone.I mention this, because it is a major game-changer in our Society (NSA), Cambridge Analytica copied their Model, while they in turn,copied J.Edgar-Hoovers model, so anyone that believes this isnt a huge deal Here, is sadly misinformed. They specifically target All people in positions of power and policy-change. The Game is now in their hands (thanks john)..and to get back to our core interests ;"not a shot was fired"

Originally Posted by Cordite

@Sidney

You maintain our justice system is not broken? Who, then, incarcerates all those people???

By your reasonable definition, if most incarcerations are inappropriate outcomes, the system is "broken".

I digress, wonder how a justice system would work with no custodial sentencing available. Hopefully more restitution / actual victim compensation, with the odd execution (or exile to Kapiti Island).

Just because there are flaws, doesn't mean its broken.. incarceration is a tool, but clearly it has been almost the only tool to mitigate the danger to the public and to penalise.

Rehabilitation is a joke when you group criminals together to educate each other how to be better criminals. So too is putting people who may not become habitual criminals or who may have committed some unintended act into a place where they can become something that they may never have otherwise.

That is stupidity and creates future harm for the rest of us.

Now none of this is simple stuff and logistically really difficult.... but I absolutely agree with you that the "making right" part of offending has been forgotten. To try and fix your cock ups is part of being a responsible person... why has society forgotten that....?

Of course sometimes victims can't face that, and it seems harsh to perpetuate their vulnerability in some sort of truth and reconciliation process, so that is not easy either...

I sometimes think that we have forgotten that conflict is a natural part of life, we have practiced conflict avoidance in preference and we are not well equipped to resolve life difficulties because we have not been trained to do so..

Facing up to errors is a part of it, but so to is facing up when we have been wronged... its all part of being responsible...

so today we hear of a pervert who over a number of years spent $100,000 towards child pornography sentenced to 4 years jail time...lawyer said he had paid $45,000 to charities fighting to prevent child abuse (presume INVADER)......interesting to say the least....... he still put $55 grand more into doing harm than effort to get off hook by token gesture preventing it.
what would be an appropriate punishment etc be?????? castration and blinded for a start...all funds sent to said charities bar some assets left for his dependants??? maybe the good old "off with his head" would be more fitting????

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so today we hear of a pervert who over a number of years spent $100,000 towards child pornography sentenced to 4 years jail time...lawyer said he had paid $45,000 to charities fighting to prevent child abuse (presume INVADER)......interesting to say the least....... he still put $55 grand more into doing harm than effort to get off hook by token gesture preventing it.
what would be an appropriate punishment etc be?????? castration and blinded for a start...all funds sent to said charities bar some assets left for his dependants??? maybe the good old "off with his head" would be more fitting????

100k worth of porn... I thought he would already have taken care of the vision adjustment himself... See this link - safe for work.

But yes, the 55K does not on the face of it reflect the principle of proportionality (unless in deed he was now skint and that was all he could come up with -- in which case 55k would hurt him proportionally worse than of he'd been loaded and had to pay a full, proportional 100K).

Someone mentioned going "Old Testament" on offenders. According to the Moses Code, someone caught thieving would be required to pay back threefold the amount worth stolen. Presumably the threefold restitution covered losses associated with the theft as well as adding a deterrent effect. No hand chopping though - a gross example of disproportional, vindictive punishment.

just been on the news...he is a multi millionaire and scoffed the 100k was "nothing" ....guess a few of them multis should be taken off his slimey mitts and put to good cause.....he even went so far to say he was helping victims by having $$$$$ sent to them......rock spider needs squashed!!!!!

Originally Posted by Sidney

Your point of comparison is valid - that being penalty associated with an unintended outcome vs a "lack" of penalty for the example you provide...

but the point is not that the rugby player or whatever shouldn't perhaps benefit from a second chance, rather that the penalty for an unintentional event seems severe in comparison?

.

Yes. It is just the imbalance that seems wrong here, I don't have enough info to have an opinion on the other decisions.
My other comments/questions are around unintended consequences. I get the possible benefits of avoiding conviction for the accused but at what cost? What do you know of victims outcomes when they feel completely let down by the system?
Are you so sure the odd up and coming Rugby player wont look at George Moalla and be emboldened because he "got away with it" ?
Nothing is easy I know and everything comes at a price.

With regard to prisons I remember watching something a while ago. IIRC It was a three stage system. On entry it was tough, hard work,discipline and little comfort, stage two was more rebuilding and rehabilitation with a few perks and stage three being more home like and focused on work skills and building blocks for the future. It was a snakes and ladder setup so cock up and you go back to the previous stage.
I thought it had a lot going for it.