Thread: Kawerau siege - Stuff court report

Originally Posted by Koshogi

Hopefully it doesn’t include firing indiscriminately through walls into rooms suspected of containing hostages/innocent woman or children.

Absolutely not. And this is why it is a training issue (and a legal one). The poor officers going into a nasty, and frankly, specialised, role of urban house clearance in an ambiguous environment and then reacting as best their natural instinct tells them to in the heat of the circumstances - like seeing your mate dropped like a log. Only those involved will ever know what went through their minds in the stress of the moment, but this is where training makes the difference in training the agreed actions (ie policy / tactics / procedures) into the mind (stress reaction / resilience) and the body (muscle memory). No one can sell the narrative to me that it is "SOP" to clear an urban room by fire, without knowing the risk of innocents being present. Not that NZ Police disclose or discuss tactics or operational procedures...

So, in a nutshell, a reaction in the heat of the moment that a better resourced and therefore better trained police force could have handled better. Particularly important when you are looked to as an example organisation. Instead, a guy trying to do his job the best he can is exposed to massive risk of manslaughter / negligence and a bunch of other strong words like those from being under prepared in a situation he wasn't trained adequately for.

As a side note, I have noticed a few police lately carrying side arms, is this due to a change in policy? When I got back from overseas the other week I was used to seeing officers outside banks, at airports etc carrying SMG's and other such hardware and when I got back it was the first time I noticed that all the NZ police in airports are carrying also, kind of understandable given the type of mad shit that seems to happen at airports around the globe these days, but then as I was driving home there was the big fire up the lewis pass so the police had set up a road block stopping cars in Culverden, I live just through Culverden so I explained that to them and they let me through, again there were two officers manning the roadblock and both of them were carrying their glocks on their side.. Never seen police in NZ just randomly carrying sidearms for no apparent reason?

I'm pretty sure the only time I've seen NZ police with firearms out/on is when I responded to a shooting. On dodgy jobs I usually look to see if any of them are wearing Tasers, because I like to know who to hide behind if I need to. Maybe you live in a dodgy part of the country?

Originally Posted by Feral

Instead, a guy trying to do his job the best he can is exposed to massive risk of manslaughter / negligence and a bunch of other strong words like those from being under prepared in a situation he wasn't trained adequately for.

Are the NZ Police (as an organisation) bound by the health & safety at work act? NZDF are exempt, right?

NZ cops have been carrying guns at International Airports for about 30 years, maybe more.

It is part of the IATA security requirements. No guns, no intrrnational flights.

When I worked in the aviation industry, the cops carried Browning 9mm pistols in a retangular plastic holster that looked like a lunchbox on their belts.

It wasn't until I asked one what he had packed for lunch, that I found out they carried guns at the airport.

Originally Posted by stretch

Are the NZ Police (as an organisation) bound by the health & safety at work act? NZDF are exempt, right?

NZDF isn't exempt! Refer Anzac day Iroquois crash. Nzdf prosecuted under health and safety legislation

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

NZDF isn't exempt! Refer Anzac day Iroquois crash. Nzdf prosecuted under health and safety legislation

Surely there must be some exemptions.

"Take that hill"

"That's not very safe, Sir. There's bad guys with guns up there."

Originally Posted by Feral

Poorly then.

I am not so sure about that. There is mention of try to use cover fire. So they were shooting through the wall towards the offender but not AT the offender in order to get the offender to "duck" so they could withdraw the wounded without further injury. In fact I would go as far to say that in the moment, police are human. yes they have more training but like any person, a split second decision is not usually one that should be over analysed by people who were not there and not making those instant decisions in combat. As mentioned earlier, the fact that the offender is alive is evidence of training and restraint. How much chance would that offender have had of survival if this had occurred somewhere like Texas? Shoot a cop there and see how long you last....17 rounds fired in that situation hell, anyone I know would have gone full mag reloaded and tried another full mag....

If I was that offender, I would be extremely grateful to be alive right now.....a jail cell has to be better than a coffin....

Originally Posted by Maca49

Glad I wasn't part of that, what a cockup, inexperienced, untrained for this situation would be my guess. Pity this shit has to go to court, fired at the police or even just presented, either dead or straight to a long prison sentence. He shouldn't be allowed to represent himself, he should be chained in the dock.

Dictionary first definition of "Dock"
1.a landing pier.
2.the space or waterway between two piers or wharves, as for receiving a ship while in port.
3.such a waterway, enclosed or open, together with the surrounding piers, wharves, etc.

Sounds like a bloody good idea, preferably to the bottom of it when the tide is in perhaps....???

Originally Posted by timattalon

I am not so sure about that. There is mention of try to use cover fire. So they were shooting through the wall towards the offender but not AT the offender in order to get the offender to "duck" so they could withdraw the wounded without further injury. In fact I would go as far to say that in the moment, police are human. yes they have more training but like any person, a split second decision is not usually one that should be over analysed by people who were not there and not making those instant decisions in combat. As mentioned earlier, the fact that the offender is alive is evidence of training and restraint. How much chance would that offender have had of survival if this had occurred somewhere like Texas? Shoot a cop there and see how long you last....17 rounds fired in that situation hell, anyone I know would have gone full mag reloaded and tried another full mag....

If I was that offender, I would be extremely grateful to be alive right now.....a jail cell has to be better than a coffin....

I think there lies a problem in the very fact that our police don't carry or use firearms often and when they do get them out they are closely scrutinised by joe public. There does seem to be questions in the mind of the average person as to their level of training and ability to use a firearm in a professional manner, it seems that this is just the latest in a long line of incidents. Innocent bystanders shot, multiple rounds fired (without discretion?) at a vehicle in Christchurch recently (only one of them actually hitting the perpetrator), multiple shots used to bring down a rogue cow in a residential area etc, all this adds up to a public that is possibly concerened, or at the very least very interested in each case of a firearm being used by police.

Originally Posted by Maca49

He shouldn't be allowed to represent himself, he should be chained in the dock.

We should start a movement Maca (no not a bowel movement although that could be useful in a few years). OSIB - Old School Is Best.

another Police Officer shot at yesterday, 3 suspects corralled, how come there is not 3 dead suspects.

cause armchair experts will all be on side of the selfentitled byproducts of failed blowjobs!then the dopey lefty polis will step in with strident demands for yet another enquiry,honi willmake it a racial issue(oops the bushQC has already done that himself)and yet again responsible licensed firearms owners will bear the brunt of this arsewipes actions!
gimme a military orderly room any day of the week short sharp and to the fucking point -plead not guilty and ya sentence is doubled.rushy dust off your orderly room drills-Imappointing you high sherriff.would have appointed pengy but give his height and waddle -he might have trouble doubling ,and seeing the orderly room officer,plus the procedure could be deemd fishy
i live for the day a judge throws the whole law library right at on e of these pricks i really do.sick &tired of this shitfaced "aw fuck Im right " attitude and its assorted enablers

Originally Posted by Gapped axe

another Police Officer shot at yesterday, 3 suspects corralled, how come there is not 3 dead suspects.

Coz the police cant shoot. :p

Originally Posted by timattalon

Dictionary first definition of "Dock"
1.a landing pier.
2.the space or waterway between two piers or wharves, as for receiving a ship while in port.
3.such a waterway, enclosed or open, together with the surrounding piers, wharves, etc.

Sounds like a bloody good idea, preferably to the bottom of it when the tide is in perhaps....???

Yep got it right!! Also remove tail!!