Thread: Mail order firearm loophole??????????

Why not use a serialised, carbon copy form. Cop shop keeps the carbon copy to compare details when seller calls to confirm.

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I know people want to be obtuse simply for the sake of discussion.

Originally Posted by stretch

Why not use a serialised, carbon copy form. Cop shop keeps the carbon copy to compare details when seller calls to confirm.

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That is certainly a method that could be used. However, any change to the process or requiring a specific form to be used, would require either an order in council by the Governor General or an Amendment to the legislation. The Police have NOT been granted that power.

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Originally Posted by Koshogi

What if that officer is not on duty? Transfered to night shift? On 4 weeks leave?

Nope he'd be the AO and he'd be sitting on his arse waiting for you to call! Because that's what he likes, in fact so much that he decided he's now the ONLY one that can really sign it off, it's a shambles and I think the police a a little frighten to open up as it's probably them that haven't been performing up to the mark! They have done some shoddy work on pistol sales, five years after I sold two of mine, I got a please explain where they were cause they were still in my name? I made a couple of phone calls to locate them, phone the AO back to be told he had sorted them! Yet shoddy bloody AO in another police station hadn't don't his job! It's ok cause it's only a pistol I know but if I didn't know who they were sold to it could have been a shit fight for me!

Originally Posted by Koshogi

That is certainly a method that could be used. However, any change to the process or requiring a specific form to be used, would require either an order in council by the Governor General or an Amendment to the legislation. The Police have NOT been granted that power.

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Not sure if you have read the legislation, but it specifically says that the POLXXX whatever form needs to be filled out, what the form contains is up to the police if they change that, it has no guidelines in legislation, so yes they do have that power and it needs to be changed.

Originally Posted by Jexla

Not sure if you have read the legislation, but it specifically says that the POLXXX whatever form needs to be filled out, what the form contains is up to the police if they change that, it has no guidelines in legislation, so yes they do have that power and it needs to be changed.

Not sure which legislation your reading, but it doesn't in the Arms Act 1983.

43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells by mail order a firearm or any ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon otherwise than pursuant to a written order—

(a) signed by the purchaser; and
(b) bearing an endorsement signed by a member of the Police and stating that the member of the Police—
(i) has inspected the purchaser’s firearms licence; and
(ii) is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition.

(2) Nothing in this section applies in relation to—

(a) any pistol, restricted weapon, or military style semi-automatic firearm; or
(b) any ammunition for a firearm to which paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of section 22(1) applies.

You will note in other sections of the Arms Act, its says "on a form provided by a member of police." Example:
23 Application for firearms licence
(1)Any person who is of or over the age of 16 years may apply at an Arms Office to a member of the Police for a firearms licence.
(2)Every application under subsection (1) shall be made on a form provided by a member of the Police.
(3)A person who is the holder of a firearms licence may, before the expiration of that firearms licence, apply for a new firearms licence.

The authority to prescribe a specific form be used, is empowered to the Governor General in Section 74 Part g:
74 Regulations
(1)The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:
(g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms

Originally Posted by Koshogi

Not sure which legislation your reading, but it doesn't in the Arms Act 1983.

43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition

That's the form number there, 43A. Just needs to be completed, what's on it is not dictated in legislation.

Ya, na.

The form "number" is a reference to the legislation.

Has the Police s43a always been required or could you just type one up yourself? I know I've typed them up myself?

Why do all the other Police forms start with POL?

Don't just take my word. Here's a legal opinion:
Under s 43 (a) of the Arms Act 1983, a purchaser can produce their own form and
have any member of police sign it. It does not need to be on a police form; that is
quite incorrect.
s 43 (a) does not say "on a form provided by the police” as it does in s 30 (a) (2). It
certainly does not say that the police will provide the form.

http://www.firearmslawyer.co.nz/uplo...rder_issue.pdf

You're absolutely correct, but the point I was trying to make is that they can put anything on their form which most people use.

We have already seen that with their current form, which even asks for the type of firearm, ammunition purchased is to be used in.

The form even says that "only a Police S43a will satisfy the requirements of the Arms Act". The last time they attempted to reinterpreted the law (check your butts), they were put in their place by the magistrate. Could another attempt now be considered contempt of court?

I don't have any problem using the Police s43a. It makes sense to me. However, I do object to requiring information that is not a legal requirement.

I've already had to deal with an AO who believed the form had to be fully completed. Thankfully other AOs had a better understanding of what the requirements actually are.



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Originally Posted by Koshogi

We have already seen that with their current form, which even asks for the type of firearm, ammunition purchased is to be used in.

The form even says that "only a Police S43a will satisfy the requirements of the Arms Act". The last time they attempted to reinterpreted the law (check your butts), they were put in their place by the magistrate. Could another attempt now be considered contempt of court?

I don't have any problem using the Police s43a. It makes sense to me. However, I do object to requiring information that is not a legal requirement.

I've already had to deal with an AO who believed the form had to be fully completed. Thankfully other AOs had a better understanding of what the requirements actually are.



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Where in the legislation does it outline what information is required?

Originally Posted by Jexla

Where in the legislation does it outline what information is required?

S43a.

Written order, signed by the purchaser, endorsed by a member of Police. That's it. No more, no less.

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The problem is though, what is a "written order"? An order probably means who you are buying from, and what you are buying. The law doesn't state it has to be the police form, but are you prepared to push the issue at the police station or in a court? The form is now emailed to the seller as well, is that written?
At the end of the day a system has been created that works that "should" keep firearms out of the wrong hands.
While no forms at Guncity or other dealers have been found to be forged, I bet some private sales were forged.

Exactly, a written order isn't specified what it is.

Also how do you interpret this meaning? Sometimes it's hard to understand what legislation is actually saying.

74 Regulations
(1)The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:
(g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms