Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Ammo Direct Terminator


User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 47
Like Tree41Likes

Thread: Mail order firearm loophole??????????

  1. #16
    Member stretch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Clarks Beach, (South of) Auckland
    Posts
    1,738
    Why not use a serialised, carbon copy form. Cop shop keeps the carbon copy to compare details when seller calls to confirm.

    Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

  2. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    1,766
    I know people want to be obtuse simply for the sake of discussion.

    Name:  horse.jpg
Views: 322
Size:  51.9 KB

  3. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by stretch View Post
    Why not use a serialised, carbon copy form. Cop shop keeps the carbon copy to compare details when seller calls to confirm.

    Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
    That is certainly a method that could be used. However, any change to the process or requiring a specific form to be used, would require either an order in council by the Governor General or an Amendment to the legislation. The Police have NOT been granted that power.

    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
    stretch likes this.

  4. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    BOP
    Posts
    21,166
    Quote Originally Posted by Koshogi View Post
    What if that officer is not on duty? Transfered to night shift? On 4 weeks leave?
    Nope he'd be the AO and he'd be sitting on his arse waiting for you to call! Because that's what he likes, in fact so much that he decided he's now the ONLY one that can really sign it off, it's a shambles and I think the police a a little frighten to open up as it's probably them that haven't been performing up to the mark! They have done some shoddy work on pistol sales, five years after I sold two of mine, I got a please explain where they were cause they were still in my name? I made a couple of phone calls to locate them, phone the AO back to be told he had sorted them! Yet shoddy bloody AO in another police station hadn't don't his job! It's ok cause it's only a pistol I know but if I didn't know who they were sold to it could have been a shit fight for me!
    mucko and mikee like this.
    Boom, cough,cough,cough

  5. #20
    Member Jexla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Napier
    Posts
    877
    Quote Originally Posted by Koshogi View Post
    That is certainly a method that could be used. However, any change to the process or requiring a specific form to be used, would require either an order in council by the Governor General or an Amendment to the legislation. The Police have NOT been granted that power.

    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
    Not sure if you have read the legislation, but it specifically says that the POLXXX whatever form needs to be filled out, what the form contains is up to the police if they change that, it has no guidelines in legislation, so yes they do have that power and it needs to be changed.
    Kscott and Tommy like this.

  6. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by Jexla View Post
    Not sure if you have read the legislation, but it specifically says that the POLXXX whatever form needs to be filled out, what the form contains is up to the police if they change that, it has no guidelines in legislation, so yes they do have that power and it needs to be changed.
    Not sure which legislation your reading, but it doesn't in the Arms Act 1983.

    43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition
    (1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells by mail order a firearm or any ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon otherwise than pursuant to a written order—
    (a) signed by the purchaser; and
    (b) bearing an endorsement signed by a member of the Police and stating that the member of the Police—
    (i) has inspected the purchaser’s firearms licence; and
    (ii) is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition.
    (2) Nothing in this section applies in relation to—
    (a) any pistol, restricted weapon, or military style semi-automatic firearm; or
    (b) any ammunition for a firearm to which paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of section 22(1) applies.


    You will note in other sections of the Arms Act, its says "on a form provided by a member of police." Example:
    23 Application for firearms licence
    (1)Any person who is of or over the age of 16 years may apply at an Arms Office to a member of the Police for a firearms licence.
    (2)Every application under subsection (1) shall be made on a form provided by a member of the Police.
    (3)A person who is the holder of a firearms licence may, before the expiration of that firearms licence, apply for a new firearms licence.


    The authority to prescribe a specific form be used, is empowered to the Governor General in Section 74 Part g:
    74 Regulations
    (1)The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:
    (g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms
    Ranger 888 likes this.

  7. #22
    Member Jexla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Napier
    Posts
    877
    Quote Originally Posted by Koshogi View Post
    Not sure which legislation your reading, but it doesn't in the Arms Act 1983.

    43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition
    That's the form number there, 43A. Just needs to be completed, what's on it is not dictated in legislation.

  8. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    457
    Ya, na.

    The form "number" is a reference to the legislation.

    Has the Police s43a always been required or could you just type one up yourself? I know I've typed them up myself?

    Why do all the other Police forms start with POL?

  9. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    457
    Don't just take my word. Here's a legal opinion:
    Under s 43 (a) of the Arms Act 1983, a purchaser can produce their own form and
    have any member of police sign it. It does not need to be on a police form; that is
    quite incorrect.
    s 43 (a) does not say "on a form provided by the police” as it does in s 30 (a) (2). It
    certainly does not say that the police will provide the form.


    http://www.firearmslawyer.co.nz/uplo...rder_issue.pdf
    Tommy likes this.

  10. #25
    Member Jexla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Napier
    Posts
    877
    You're absolutely correct, but the point I was trying to make is that they can put anything on their form which most people use.

  11. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    457
    We have already seen that with their current form, which even asks for the type of firearm, ammunition purchased is to be used in.

    The form even says that "only a Police S43a will satisfy the requirements of the Arms Act". The last time they attempted to reinterpreted the law (check your butts), they were put in their place by the magistrate. Could another attempt now be considered contempt of court?

    I don't have any problem using the Police s43a. It makes sense to me. However, I do object to requiring information that is not a legal requirement.

    I've already had to deal with an AO who believed the form had to be fully completed. Thankfully other AOs had a better understanding of what the requirements actually are.



    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

  12. #27
    Member Jexla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Napier
    Posts
    877
    Quote Originally Posted by Koshogi View Post
    We have already seen that with their current form, which even asks for the type of firearm, ammunition purchased is to be used in.

    The form even says that "only a Police S43a will satisfy the requirements of the Arms Act". The last time they attempted to reinterpreted the law (check your butts), they were put in their place by the magistrate. Could another attempt now be considered contempt of court?

    I don't have any problem using the Police s43a. It makes sense to me. However, I do object to requiring information that is not a legal requirement.

    I've already had to deal with an AO who believed the form had to be fully completed. Thankfully other AOs had a better understanding of what the requirements actually are.



    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
    Where in the legislation does it outline what information is required?

  13. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by Jexla View Post
    Where in the legislation does it outline what information is required?
    S43a.

    Written order, signed by the purchaser, endorsed by a member of Police. That's it. No more, no less.

    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

  14. #29
    Caretaker stug's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Rolleston, Canterbury
    Posts
    5,058
    The problem is though, what is a "written order"? An order probably means who you are buying from, and what you are buying. The law doesn't state it has to be the police form, but are you prepared to push the issue at the police station or in a court? The form is now emailed to the seller as well, is that written?
    At the end of the day a system has been created that works that "should" keep firearms out of the wrong hands.
    While no forms at Guncity or other dealers have been found to be forged, I bet some private sales were forged.

  15. #30
    Member Jexla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Napier
    Posts
    877
    Exactly, a written order isn't specified what it is.

    Also how do you interpret this meaning? Sometimes it's hard to understand what legislation is actually saying.

    74 Regulations
    (1)The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:
    (g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. S43A Form (Firearm/Ammo Mail Order)
    By cambo in forum Resource Library
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 21-01-2018, 09:00 PM
  2. Mail order system
    By Skitsokiwi in forum Firearm Safety
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 23-12-2015, 09:37 PM
  3. Mail Order Ammo?
    By jackson21 in forum Firearms, Optics and Accessories
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-08-2015, 08:03 PM
  4. Police mail order forms
    By specweapon in forum Firearms, Optics and Accessories
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 30-04-2015, 10:16 AM
  5. Police 'mail order' forms...
    By Pop Shot in forum Firearms, Optics and Accessories
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 21-01-2013, 02:20 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Welcome to NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums! We see you're new here, or arn't logged in. Create an account, and Login for full access including our FREE BUY and SELL section Register NOW!!