Thread: Mountain Safety Council Firearms Course

Originally Posted by Koshogi

Hence why I don't want to change the music, I just think that everybody should be singing in tune.

Just because you have knowledge and experience, does not mean that you have the skills necessary to impart that knowledge and skill to others. I want to help people do that.

I really hope that people can see that I am trying to provide constructive feedback.

I know change can bring fear and take people out of their comfort zone. I believe that this is an important issue, peoples lives are literally at stake.

Change is constant. Don't try and fight it.

I dont know much about these guys, but my mate tells me a little every now and then, I know he works in very closely with the local AO, there seems to be a lot of communication of accidents, near misses etc shared to help with the training. He also runs a tight ship, Id probably fail one of his courses and get my beans, but this man has years of practical shooting in most disciplines and hunting in NZ, including working as a guide for overseas hunters coming to NZ. Probably a bit of a rare find.

sounds like a valuable find

And please make sure that they stop teaching people to use a half cock/bolt position instead of a safety on anything other than their grand dads .303.

Originally Posted by ebf

Bill, answer me this please...

Other than being willing to give up some of your time, what qualifications do you have to enable you to be a firearms safety instructor for MSC ?

Other than attending a couple of the courses to learn the "script", did you do any specific training around
A) firearms safety
B) adult education

What vetting and quality control processes exist within MSC to weed out instructors imparting incorrect information ? Have any instructors been let go or forced to take remedial training in the last 5 years ?

buggered if I know about the last 5 years, Iv only been doing it a short time
you are taught by a previous instructer and you are required to have a FAL and I believe no issues with the law
You have access information regarding firearm incedents causing injury/death and I was shown that you try to stress that safety is paramount

SafetySafetySafetySafety

encourage the safe use of firearms. and make sure people know that it isnt a joke, people die from miss use ect

Regarding helping people pass that isnt what the MSC wants
We will read thru a question to a person then tell them its a "safety test" so think about the safest answer.
If they obviously havent read the arms code they are to be asked to leave and come back when they have

it is a really basic test that you facilitate people sitting
If they have reading differculties then you read to them when they have trouble understanding a word or rephraze it without making it obvious
you are there to help people understand safety with firearms, I see others beliefs creaping in regarding semi's and half bolt but that is totally personal opinions.
the material you teach with is limited and out dated, but really stressing safety and overseeing a test is all you are there to do
and help if someone has trouble, because lets be honest some of the questions asked are fucking stupid, trick questions

could I write a script for people to follow? sure. Would it help, I doubt it
usually a class is made up of a load of older people that havent been in a class room for over 30 years
some left school back then due to failing tests, people are stressing out and giving stupid answers even when they know the correct ones.

it is the mountain safety council not the NZ police, all they want is to increase the ease of people out there getting licences, as if the police were to hold them there would be less opportunity as they are so damn busy all the time
so we travel out in to small towns and hold evening classes to give people the opportunity to sit the safety test
otherwise there would be less firearms licence holders

Originally Posted by Maca49

Yes. Given the opportunity, I will volunteer my time and training qualifications to develop a remodeled training package that is reliable and consistent, in accordance with the learning outcomes. I will also assist with the training and assessment of instructors if required.
As NIKE says JUST DO IT

sounds like you want to be the boss before you know how to do the job

there are improvements to be made absolutely

Mike Daisley
Chief Executive
New Zealand Mountain Safety Council
Tel: 04 385 7162 ext 222
DDI: 04 915 9280
Cell: 027 443 7557
Email: mike.daisley@mountainsafety.org.nz
Address: Level 3 l 19 Tory Street l PO Box 6027 l Wellington l 6141

heres the head of the snake
best to see the top I say.

Originally Posted by Bill999

sounds like you want to be the boss

I merely offered to assist. At no stage did I say that I want to run it.

I would fully expect that any training package that was developed was subject to peer review and feedback, on a continual basis. This ensures that the training does not become stagnant, and continues to improve. Like you yourself have admitted is required.

Originally Posted by Bill999

before you know how to do the job

What are you basing this opinion on?

As you have questioned my ability to "do the job". I will outline my experience and qualification to assist in the development of this training package below:

• 20 years experience in workplace training.
• Held a formal qualification in adult education for the past 8 years. Specifically a Certificate IV Training and Assessment(Australian).
• Qualified Australian Army Instructor and Assessor
• Qualified Australian Army Training Supervisor-Developing and assessing the delivery of training packages.
• 17 years carrying arms as a profession.
• Qualified armorer
• Held or undergone the licensing/training requirements for three(3) countries (Australia, Canada, and New Zealand)
• I also hold qualifications in Occupational Health and Safety, and Risk Management.

Do you still think that I don't know how to "do the job"?

As I have said several times, I only wish to assist in the development of this training course.

Thank you for your input.

sounds like you want to do be the boss before you know how to do the job, thats one sentence. not two and in separating them you have taken it out of context.



reminds me of this

Step back, take a deep breath and a good look at the underlying message and you will find you are both on the same team.

Agree with Rushy, and for the record if the programme and material is suitable you dont need to be an expert to deliver it. Knowledge of yes, but expert no.

One would have to think that Koshogi would have something positive to offer, and with those credentials being volunteered to help , why wouldn't you have him helping. Chink chink my 2c

Originally Posted by Gapped axe

Chink chink my 2c

Well spent GA.

Reading through this Bill999 has taken offence to something that wasn't directed at him but at the instructor that Koshogi experienced. If there is indeed such a poor level of training and instruction (maybe just from the one instructor) it does appear that there is a need for proper training (maybe just to this one individual).
I agree that the firearms test is a bit of a joke, with the help offered to people that obviously haven't studied and have all but no clue about firearms and their safety. Even in the US they have a handling section of the test (I've been told shotgun with 2 live rounds). There is definitely a need for a shake up, but that still won;t stop the idiots nor the crims. At least if you're trying to do it the legal way, you have the correct intentions.

Sounds like Koshogi would be an EXTREMELY valuable addition to the MSC and Bill999, you're all but telling him to piss off. Cool your jets Bill, take the offered assistance.

I found the the same course a bit mixed, I learnt a few things which was great, and was also surprized a few things were more opinions than anything else.

The thing that got me was the number of test fails, and they were told to go away and try again, and again, and again... What?????
I was happy to 100%, but it showed me that people who had not read or understood the arms code were being allowed to pass.
...grant

I thought you could only sit it twice beofe you got the big red rubber stamp?

Also Bill there is no need to get salty, OP could quite easily have come on here and made a thread along the lines of "hurrr msc iz stupid and I haet them so much durrr", but instead he has identified some problems and put forward some solutions.

Im not saying he should piss off at all, I think he would make a fine instructor - far better than the idiot that took his test, but I bet he wouldn't be prepared to do that - (which annoys me) someone picking holes in a job done by a volunteer but they arnt prepaired to give what that person is giving, their time on a regular basis to help other

Koshogi you SHOULD join the MSC and take courses where you personilise them to make them the best course they could possibly be, that way with more people in the ranks maybe the MSC could be more picky about who runs courses and drop the worst off the list
from what I understand this isnt possible due to the fact not many people are prepaired to give up their time to help