Thread: Mountain Safety Council Firearms Course

I have just joined the Forum, so my comments are somewhat belated. I was a NZ Mountain Safety Council Firearms Safety Instructor in Auckland from 1984-2006. Reading the threads on this issue, I felt compelled to reply. I think Koshogi's first post revealed his lack of understanding of the testing process and that he assumed too much. The course revolves around the 7 basic rules of firearms safety and the law relating to firearms safety. It is not designed to make a course member a firearms "expert", nor does the instructor need to be an "expert", but that person should ideally have considerable experience with firearms. Sadly, that does not always apply. As Koshogi pointed out, not all instructors are competent teachers. I used to tell attendees on my courses that they would need to continue to gain as much knowledge on firearms as they could from books and other (competent) firearms users. I made a point of covering each test question in my lecture, and used relevant stories from my own experiences to reinforce those points. Selecting some of Koshogi's examples: you ARE able to leave a firearm unattended in a vehicle, AS LONG AS IT IS UNDER SUPERVISION ; people should not RELY on safety catches- they can fail (I never use a safety); there is not time during the course to display each type of firearm action, and it is not relevant to the aims of the course. Koshogi's comments about the teaching style he/she encountered though are relevant. I am glad that these were brought to the attention of the NZMSC. The idea of a proficiency test had been discussed many years ago, and was shelved because of the sheer impracticality. I commenced testing at Henderson Police Station, when there would be over 100 people sitting the test one night every month. As a volunteer (unpaid), how could I find the time to conduct such a practical test for that many people every month? Where would you conduct it in Auckland?
Lastly, the emphasis on the testing course is on the 7 basic safety rules because every firearms related injury or fatality is a result of someone ignoring one (or more) of those rules.

Mine was the same nearly 30 years ago
At the very least you shuld be taught how to correctly and safely check ALL types of firearms are unloaded and otherwise made safe. I include ALL types of action and handguns. Just because you only interest in one type does not mean you should not know how to check the others.
A practical handling test would be difficult to administer but maybe / should be something to be considered. Considering how much sway the MSC have with police they should make the lecture relevant to today not 1965 .
I along with other club members would have been happy to take my pistols / mssa's in to their course and demonstrate but no one was interested. It is/was all "hunting' related however many people are getting their licence who are not interested in hunting and will never hunt.

I don't believe that hanguns or MSSA should be included on a practical test on the standard firearm safety course.
Handguns are covered already under the application process for their category of license. MSSA could not be, due to the Arms Act. The operation of a MSSA doesn't generally differ from readily available A category firearms.

The administration of the practical test would be easy. It would only be required for the applicant to show that they can safely control a firearm, inspect it and identify the major parts. Class sizes would need to be reduced to a maximum of 8-10 students per instructor.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

I did mine 15 years ago and it was the same. There were three guys that got 5-6 questions wrong and the instructors simply talked them through it, resulting in a pass for all that attended. I felt ripped off having studied up and getting all right. All the question at the time were common sense so am unsure how you can get that many wrong.

End of story a fail is a fail! Go away, study up and come back when you are competent.

This has inspired me to go and sit in on the next course they have to see what it's like. Can't really remember what it was like when I did mine.

I think we can all relate to our own tests.
I got 100% and was waiting for the practical part, as they had an example of each action.
But no, it was some long winded story about hunting at Woodhill.
Would have liked to have been shown how to operate, strip and clean the lever, semi and pump especially.

Gillie should run these, haven't felt so rarked up for years after his safety talk at the TQiti shoot, there were yellow and red cards as well! Very professional, everybody was very well informed of the consequences of an F up. he had everyone's attention, well done @Gillie

Iv got a great idea, why dont you experts join in with the rest of us volunteers who give up our time to help you ungreatfull gits get their firearms licence.

I saw the miss-communication coming thru the ranks right from the arms officers and being filtered thru and saw an opportunity to help

MSC is there to help you sit your licence, not teach you the rules, you should know them and have read them before arriving at the course. and know the arms code from cover to cover.

sounds like this chap got a little off topic while he was taking time out of his life and volunteering to help you with your licence

think you can do better? im sure the MSC is short staffed in your area

Originally Posted by Bill999

Iv got a great idea, why dont you experts join in with the rest of us volunteers who give up our time

I have volunteered my time, to improve the structure of the course for benefit of all future firearm owners and users.

Originally Posted by Bill999

to help you ungreatfull gits get their firearms licence.

This accurately portrays the mentality and attitude that is often faced when attempting to effect a change in a deeply entrenched environment. I think it clearly highlights why I did not mention this to the instructor during the course.

Originally Posted by Bill999

MSC is there to help you sit your licence, not teach you the rules,

Definition of course in the context of education; is a unit of teaching.

If the purpose of the MSC course is solely to administer the test, then it is a waste of resources. This could be conducted in the presence of a Police Officer like in Australia.

By the comments made by others, the MSC course surely does help people sit their licence test. Perhaps a little too much.

Originally Posted by Bill999

sounds like this chap got a little off topic while he was taking time out of his life and volunteering to help you with your licence

I'm not sure if you actually read my comments. The instruction was a little more than off topic, it was completely lacking in a formulated structure.

Being a volunteer is a noble thing. I applaud everyone who actively contributes to the improvement of the community and society. Although this volunteer was not picking up garbage, he was instructing members of the community to safely own and use a potentially deadly weapon and providing them with information that could lead to death, injury or criminal proceedings. As such a benchmark must be set, and maintained for the delivery of the instruction during these courses.

Do not think that because you give your valuable time to volunteer, it does not give people the right to hold you to account for how you conduct yourself.

Originally Posted by Bill999

think you can do better?

Yes. Given the opportunity, I will volunteer my time and training qualifications to develop a remodeled training package that is reliable and consistent, in accordance with the learning outcomes. I will also assist with the training and assessment of instructors if required.

Well said Bill999! I think it also maybe that many of the older experience guys are getting harder to find. However I would expect them to be singing from the same hymn sheet. My old mate in Te Puke does it at the small bore club I think monthly, he's 75 now but all he knows is hunting, fishing and shooting firearms of all sorts. Hard to replace.

Originally Posted by Maca49

However I would expect them to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

Hence why I don't want to change the music, I just think that everybody should be singing in tune.

Just because you have knowledge and experience, does not mean that you have the skills necessary to impart that knowledge and skill to others. I want to help people do that.

I really hope that people can see that I am trying to provide constructive feedback.

I know change can bring fear and take people out of their comfort zone. I believe that this is an important issue, peoples lives are literally at stake.

Change is constant. Don't try and fight it.

Originally Posted by Koshogi

Hence why I don't want to change the music, I just think that everybody should be singing in tune.

Just because you have knowledge and experience, does not mean that you have the skills necessary to impart that knowledge and skill to others. I want to help people do that.

I really hope that people can see that I am trying to provide constructive feedback.

I know change can bring fear and take people out of their comfort zone. I believe that this is an important issue, peoples lives are literally at stake.

Change is constant. Don't try and fight it.

I dont know much about these guys, but my mate tells me a little every now and then, I know he works in very closely with the local AO, there seems to be a lot of communication of accidents, near misses etc shared to help with the training. He also runs a tight ship, Id probably fail one of his courses and get my beans, but this man has years of practical shooting in most disciplines and hunting in NZ, including working as a guide for overseas hunters coming to NZ. Probably a bit of a rare find.

The practical test conducted for the Canadian Firearm Safety course involves no live fire.

It is merely to show that a person can safely handle and operate a firearm.

This is even a requirement for every member of the Australian Army prior to every live fire shoot.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

Seriously dude join the msc volunteer your time on a regular basis and change the system from within
Wingey wingey gets nothing done except profess that you are a know all blowhard

Bill, answer me this please...

Other than being willing to give up some of your time, what qualifications do you have to enable you to be a firearms safety instructor for MSC ?

Other than attending a couple of the courses to learn the "script", did you do any specific training around
A) firearms safety
B) adult education

What vetting and quality control processes exist within MSC to weed out instructors imparting incorrect information ? Have any instructors been let go or forced to take remedial training in the last 5 years ?