Thread: Mountain Safety Council Firearms Course

The hunting is totally different in the Uk, the biggest issue is the close proximity of the general public, be they dog walkers, townies out for a Sunday stroll or whatever. You have to be on the ball all the time. Yes I agree there is not big areas of bush like there is here, most of the lowland stalking is done on open farm land and even the woodland stalking is done on the rides and edges, Maybe the big difference is that the stalking is generally done on ones own on a piece of ground where you have sole rights so the chance of bumping into another hunter is pretty remote. The greatest danger is a member of the public showing up at the wrong time since the right to roam act was past giving greater access to private land. I know from my own personal experiences you had to be bloody sure of your target and also the backdrop before you pulled that trigger. Stalking on open lowland farms brings its own issues because of the lack of back drops, this is were high seats come into there own because now you have a greater field of view and a missed shot ends up in the dirt.

I think most of the instances here occur for a similar reason. People think with so much bush available that a noise/movement must be a deer. We all need to treat everything as human until proven otherwise, no matter how remote we are.

I still think we should impliment at least some form of competency check prior to issuing a FAL.

Originally Posted by Gibo

I think most of the instances here occur for a similar reason. People think with so much bush available that a noise/movement must be a deer. We all need to treat everything as human until proven otherwise, no matter how remote we are.

I still think we should impliment at least some form of competency check prior to issuing a FAL.

Boom!! That's the paramount point NZ's hunting community need to be taught and taught and reminded of on a regular basis... It's really very simple. Say it louder Gibo...

All together now... "EVERYTHING that moves in the bush is human, until there's absolutely no doubt!"

I've allowed many deer to run away and live another day since seeing a man walk into my scope cross hairs in dull light very early in my hunting career. I heard a faint twig snap, raised my rifle and waited for the 'deer' to walk into view. Wow! What a lesson that was. If I'd been taught to be any more blasé, I may well have pulled the trigger. Thanks dad :-/

Just an update for those following this topic.

I was contacted on Monday by a member of the MSC.

MSC is going to conduct an investigation into my complaint and remedy any issues found in the delivery of the training package.

An application for membership for the MSC was sent to me. I intend to join and contribute my time when my personal situation allows.

The MSC representative was disapointed that I had aired my complaint on this forum, and felt that it had belittled the work of the volunteers. This was my response to that topic;
"I do not believe that airing criticism about the management of the course on a public forum can be construed as being dismissive of the volunteers themselves. As I mentioned on NZHS, I think it is a noble thing to volunteer and applaud everyone who actively contributes to the improvement of their community. However, given the subject matter being covered, the volunteers and the MSC do a disservice to the community by allowing a course to be delivered in such a shoddy manner."

What is your opinion on me sharing my experience? I'm pretty sure I know yours Bill999

I think you did a good thing

I think that putting your concerns out there, so to speak, is a good thing. It opens the topic up for wider debate, and also means that your concerns are less likely to be quietly swept under the carpet. I am not suggesting that MSC would dismiss your complaint if it had not been aired here, but it does make it a little harder to ignore.

It's good. From my point of view and experience, it's something that needs addressing.

Koshogi for king of New Zealand tbh, his desire to get things done and excellent grammar would ensure my vote.

All power to your right arm Koshogi.

Thank s for bringing this up Koshogi, Ive long being a supporter for increased training for the general public. Like you we have a almost matching Qualifications.
I applied for a position within MSC as a hunts coordinator which also involved mentoring the volunteers who deliver the program and from memory they were all working towards a adult ed qualification.
I was surprised to here that instructors wern't following a set program, I guess it will always be a problem where people wander off on tangents and pass on their own ideas and very hard to keep every one on the same page. I don't envy the coordinators job one person and a huge job over the whole country and trying not to upset anyone cause lets face it not many of us have time to spare these days.
MSC is based on the help from Volunteers and only has a few paid employees
I full support the MSC and have benefitted from some of there excellent mountaineering training over the years.
lets support them to keep on improving what they deliver.
A lot of us on this forum have had millions spent on us buy our own govt and others around the world and others have the commonsence to be safe out there to.
My 2cents worth.
Cheers

I have over the years and at peoples request given them a little basic firearms training. mine is directly from my TF years and regular force instructors.
First quote -"make a mistake -my boot goes up your arse ,no exceptions". some people Ive simply refused to as I basically dont trust em.
one claimed he was in the market for a machinegun FFS"my mate has gang contacts ya know ,can get anything"- "go get yourself a good casket dickhead"
Ive heard a lot mentioned on here but i didnt have to deal with MSC when i got my FAL. one thing did crop up though.the spotlighting question . crusty old cop in hokitika went to mark me wrong for saying spotlighting is unsafe.his rationale -its OK no people round -my reply -yep even a .22 can travel a mile -no spotlight shines that far, smiling he marked me right 'lotta commonsense in your head lad"

Originally Posted by kotuku

one thing did crop up though.the spotlighting question . crusty old cop in hokitika went to mark me wrong for saying spotlighting is unsafe.his rationale -its OK no people round -my reply -yep even a .22 can travel a mile -no spotlight shines that far, smiling he marked me right 'lotta commonsense in your head lad"

I guess it shows you were thinking about it, which is half the battle with some people - he was right that spotlighting can be done quite safely, but you do have to be careful and pass up some shots that might be ok in daylight.

My 2C - my course was shit too. It was an advertisement for two clubs in particular and very little other information was covered.

I sent a Facebook message to MSC which resulted in a two hour lunch with Nicole Mackay and a huuuuuuge amount of awesome, positive action being discussed.

MSC has an amazing program for safety that is slowly being rolled out across the country. Unfortunately it's not about soon and gloom and blood and guts, so the media isn't buying it.

Talking to your local AO or MSC representative is a great way to go to both put your mind at ease and also gain tips on how to be a better safety ambassador of the firearms community.


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Its a bit disappointing to hear that the MSC isnt delivering the goods. I was an instructor for nearly 30 years from the early 1970's to 2003 instructing at Porirua, Wellington and lower Hutt old and new Police stations and found generally most instructors were very good. The majority of instructors were NZDA members and had a keen knowledge and passion for hunting and firearms. We had an approved course we taught with practical details provided by our own experience .We were updated regularly with the new relevant legislation and firearm accident statistics which detailed the cause and effect of the accident which in turn was woven into the course. Our emphasis was always safety,safety and safety. In the few hours we had to run the course each night its not possible to cover everything in depth but all the basics were explained. We had a good variety of different firearms as teaching aids including damaged firearms ,blocked barrels etc that explained more than words. It was important to ensure that the safety laws were understood and the results of abusing the rules was injury or death. The main man in those days was Bob Badland whoes passion in driving MSC was infectious . Although we were all unpaid volunteers we did maintain close contact and would all meet at least once a year for a general get together and update.
When I did my original training as an instructor it was pretty basic involving a two day course held at the Wellington branch NZDA range . We were expected to be very familiar with the various firearms and hunting methods and the emphasis was on teaching methods. This is of course a very short time to teach a teacher . We always understood that our input as volunteers was by necessity limited and limited funding was available from The Internal Affairs dept ,then subsequently the Police . The firearms/ arms officer at most Police Stations then was also the lost property officer ,most of whom had limited hunting and firearm experience and were hugely overworked but who were proactive in supporting us few volunteers. It was not our job to vet anyone as our warrant was for instructing although we would on occasion communicate our concerns of anyone to the relevant people. This was a very rare occurrence. I think that all in all we did a good job instructing people with similar interests who took a great deal from the course and who subsequently became avid hunters and shooters and whose commitment to their sport and safety is shown by the literacy and concern expressed on this forum and who can in turn if they wish give something back.
I ceased to be an instructor due to work commitments in 2003 and have had little to do with MSC since that time but feel the MSC course is only as good as the volunteers who run it and that could be you.