Thread: Overall length Saga continues

Originally Posted by MaW

Thanks Cordite, I understand what the legislation is and I understand the police 'policy' of how they want to measure an E-cat but I was curious where @Square22 got his information that

A cats - from end of stock (obviously can't be collapsible/foldable) to end of threads.

Forget the collapsible part, I was curious about 'to ends of threads'. I have an A-cat that follows the legislation and is legal no matter what policy policy is but I have never seen any police document that says an A cat is measured to the threads. I could point to some rifles on NZ dealers right now that dont meet that definition either but they are being sold legally.

Yep collapsible / foldable only applies to semi autos on A cat, fine on a non semi auto a cat.

The Police document on measuring from the stock to the end of the barrel without attachments is on the Police website (https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def..._-approval.pdf)

and Founz has also put it on their website ( http://www.founz.co.nz/wp-content/up..._-approval.pdf).

The length of any firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions

Following protests from a few different groups the Police released the below via email to various groups including Pistol NZ, Kiwi Gun Blog, Deer stalkers etc relating only to MSSA

On the 13th of September the policy position below was distributed internally and externally. Since then I have been asked to provide clarification as to the points to be measured from and to. To determine overall length of the MSSA the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it.
Mike McIlraith - Arms Act Service Delivery Group"

Essentially - E cats at the moment can include a flash suppressor as part of the length, A cats can not and are measured to the end of the barrel or the thread if it is threaded.

Originally Posted by MaW

I am curious about the A cat measurement because the police release and document is specifically dealing with MSSA firearms which are not A-Cat. I have not seen any similar document relating to A-Cat for police policy so there is only the legislation (as there should be for E as well) which just has minimum length and no guide on how to measure that.

Yeah it is not an accurately labelled document but it does say 'any firearm'

The length of any firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions.

It then talks about the approved A cat list and B cat list so it is not just about MSSA.

Originally Posted by Square22

Yeah it is not an accurately labelled document but it does say 'any firearm'

The length of any firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions.

It then talks about the approved A cat list and B cat list so it is not just about MSSA.

Now that I have read the document I can see it is a bloody mess and I am still happy with the configuration of my kids A-cat rifle.

I still read it as specific to E-cat, not A although it does reference a-cat that seems to be for a specific purpose not relating to length (why it's in there who knows?)

I found two things interesting. One, it goes in to some detail on how to measure the length of a barrel when barrel length on an MSSA is of no significance in of itself, only the OAL.

Second the whole first section on measuring an MSSA is worded that it is specific to a MSSA that has the 'feature' of a telescopic stock. I don't see how you can apply that policy to an a-cat that cannot have a feature their policy is based on.

So I still don't see how this document can be used as policy for an a-cat rifle but we all know, we personally take the risk if we do something we know to be OK in law but are unsure if it is police 'policy'.

Originally Posted by MaW

Second the whole first section on measuring an MSSA is worded that it is specific to a MSSA that has the 'feature' of a telescopic stock. I don't see how you can apply that policy to an a-cat that cannot have a feature their policy is based on.

So I still don't see how this document can be used as policy for an a-cat rifle but we all know, we personally take the risk if we do something we know to be OK in law but are unsure if it is police 'policy'.

Well you sort of can. Nit picking a little but there are chassis for bolt out there that fit AR type stock bits like the Ruger precision.
Not really the type of firearm to do a shorty but it could still happen.

Hi all,

So what is the legal overall length now

Originally Posted by AndrewG11

Hi all,

So what is the legal overall length now

762mm, otherwise it is classed as a pistol.

Originally Posted by Cordite

@40mm

Practical take-away point from that brief introduction is... a pinch of chalk into my cases will raise a curiously strong flash - like a Hollywood gun! Maybe I'll do it and see if anyone asks questions at the range.

Attachment 93549

pinch of ascorbic acid works well too

Didn’t think E-Cat was still a thing

its no tjust an e-cat thing. say if you owned a cut off 22 or 12 gauge under 762mm then its classed as a pistol. the issue is what constitutes 762mm, a soldered on or pinned on suppressor is included in length etc