Thread: This question again

Exactly maca49

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Had mine renewed last year I think, vetting officer didn't even open the safes, wasnt required apparently. He offered to take serial nos but he said it wasnt necessary. He was a good bugger I'm not sure if he asked about bolts in rifles but most have their bolts in them depending on which safe they are in.

I do take the bolts out of my rifles as I have a seperate safe for my ammo as well, mainly for nosy grand kids and wife!

Hi guys. Just my ha'pennys worth. Just been vetted for a renewal as well ( now approved says the nice letter from my AO).

When the vetter came round, he asked to see my security, so took him to my downstairs garage, pointed to the old steel locker wedged between the wall and my work bench, and told him it was bolted to the floor/ bench/ wall, and had 2 heavy duty padlocks on it.

He then asked where I stored the bolts and ammo, so I took him upstairs, pointed out the kitchen window at one of the sheds, and said, in there, inside locked steel ammo cases.

He didn't ask to unlock the safe, or want to view the ammo storage, just ticked the boxes on the form.

Interestingly, he did ask for 1) list of all my firearms, an 2) if I had the serial numbers. I raised my eyebrows at both questions, but listed the arms, but could not tell him the serials, as I hadn't got round to recording them ( tomorrow's job though).

I guess there are huge variations between not only vetters, but also AO's. The AO in Upper Hutt seems ok, but the Lower Hutt one can be a bit of a grouch (especially if you are asking him to sign off an S43a form.). Still, maybe I caught him on 3 off days

The vetter I had tried to tell me that my safe wasn't good enough (typical $300ish job). Have to agree that I probably should have got a really good one, but it sure as hell meets the requirements of the law and I told him so. He had to back down and approve it in the end seeing as there are probably thousands of that particular safe that have already been approved. He could just tell I could probably afford better and tried it on.

At some point I will get a solid E-cat one even though I don't "need" it.

Originally Posted by Maca49

The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!

The question Savage1 asked is perfectly logical and yet to be answered by the OP. I think you're getting a little dramatic with, "It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law". Some Arms Officer's may like the idea of recording serial numbers but I've never heard of any that insisted on it.

Regarding the firearms vettor's interpretation of what is, "A lockable cabinet, container or receptacle of ‘stout construction’ i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access". This is always going to be open to some interpretation. I would suggest that if anyone's current 'A' cat security has been declined as not having met the requirements and they think that it does, then discuss it in a calm and reasonable manner with the vettor and or their AO. It would make the firearm vettor's job a lot easier if the wording of the law was more specific in this regard such as it is for 'E' and 'B' category security requirements. Would the 'A' category firearms licence holder prefer a more specific and clearly defined law pertaining to this? By that I mean, a requirement for example, gun racks and strong rooms aside, that all 'A' cat gun cabinets or receptacles MUST be constructed of at least 2mm thick mild steel with a door of no less thickness than 3mm mild steel, securely bolted to the wall and the floor etc. This would surely upset the many thousands of 'A' cat FAL holder's who have various wooden and thin walled steel cabinets currently use. Even so, personally, I think the law needs to be more specific on this.

Regarding the sale of firearms and ammunition by mail order, TM etc. This has increased dramatically in recent years and obviously some variation in what is required by your local AO may exist. If you have a difference of opinion with your local AO on this and you're sure that you're right then discuss it in a calm and polite manner.

The police are there to help you. Overall, they do a fantastic job under often difficult circumstances.

Why do they want to record your serial numbers?
Has it come back in that this is now put down on a national data base?
I thought that this went out an age ago around 1985/7 when the life time licences came in before that was changed to the ten year one after the Aramoana tragedy. The reason given by the police at the time was that there data was in such a mess that it was no longer fit for purpose.
They still record them here in the UK. It has it's pros and cons.
To now try and go back and start up this data base would not in my option be very cost affective.
Judging from some of the posts on here about how long it takes for you to get your FAC. I think that the police have better things to do.
As a side note here in the UK your make caliber serial number of every firearm is recorded on your paper FAC and shotgun cert.
This is a big problem because if you lose it and it falls into the wrong hands they know where you live and what you have.
How's that for a security breach!!!!!!

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

From what I read you're saying that instead of a lockable cabinet, container or receptacle you have a room of stout construction? If this is correct, does the room have windows that are secured (barred) against entry, a quality security rated lock on the door or doors which have hinges with pins that can't be removed from the outside? Or, if your room doesn't meet these requirements, is your chain that runs through the trigger guard of your firearms, secured to the building in a secure manner?

Presumably you are referring to "A" category firearms.

This is regarding A cat only.
Yes I have a room of Stout construction, No windows, security rated lock, hinges that can not be accessed, solid core door.
Not forgetting the code only states: ‘stout construction’ i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Is your room a strong room? Or is it just an ordinary room with a lock on the door? You seem to have chop and changed the wording to suit.

Just buy a safe and be done with it. I take the security of my firearms seriously, not just as a hurdle to keeping my licence hence buying an E-cat safe when all I need is a crappy chain bolted to the wall.

I don't think I've chopped and changed any wording to suit myself or as you imply not taking my security seriously. I don't need to buy a safe as I already have a room of stout construction which is all that is required.
What is the difference between a strong room and a room of stout construction?

Long while since I lived in a house on a farm where a 22 was always at hand and could be grabbed at a moment's notice to deal to possums on the roof etc. Nowadays, even if I desired to self defend with a firearm I would have to get the felons to sit down for a coffee whilst I retrieved a gun, a bolt, ammo all kept in different secure locations throughout my house - maybe a 10 minute exercise. Practically I would be better off grabbing a carving knife out of the kitchen drawer.

When asked this question I said it would be unlikely the assailant would allow me to open my safe to retrieve a firearm then grab some ammo from another location.
He thought it was a good answer but I was just thinking it was the one he wanted to hear.

I would do anything to protect my family and friends.

Property is insured and can be replaced. So if that is all was what I thought they were interested in, I would just leave them to it.



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Originally Posted by zimmer

Long while since I lived in a house on a farm where a 22 was always at hand and could be grabbed at a moment's notice to deal to possums on the roof etc. Nowadays, even if I desired to self defend with a firearm I would have to get the felons to sit down for a coffee whilst I retrieved a gun, a bolt, ammo all kept in different secure locations throughout my house - maybe a 10 minute exercise. Practically I would be better off grabbing a carving knife out of the kitchen drawer.

Depends what story you give the police.
If you said you heard a crash and a bang from outside and had been having problems with possums, so you quickly got your rifle to deal with it, but was in fact someone trying to break in, after they tried to attack you you shot them. That is self defense and should be entirely legal, unless that is the police at the time decide to interpret the law differently, because it was a Tuesday.

19Conditions relating to security precautions
(1)Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following conditions:
(a)the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
(b)the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and ammunition for it in his or her possession, either—
(i)shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the ammunition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains access to the ammunition; or
(ii)shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
(c)the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holder’s possession is secured against theft:
(d)the holder shall, where he or she has possession of a firearm that is—
(i)a flare pistol; or
(ii)a humane killer; or
(iii)a stock marking pistol,—
keep it in a locked container, except where it is under the holder’s immediate and personal supervision.
(2)On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) shall include—
(a)keeping on the holder’s premises—
(i)a lockable cabinet, container, or receptacle of stout construction in which firearms may be stored; or
(ii)a lockable steel and concrete strongroom in which firearms may be stored; or
(iii)a display cabinet or rack in which firearms may be immobilised and locked so that none of them may be fired; and
(b)keeping locked or immobilised and locked in the cabinet, container, receptacle, strongroom, display cabinet, or rack required by paragraph (a) every firearm which is on the holder’s premises and which is not under immediate and personal supervision of the holder or some other holder of a firearms licence; and
(c)ensuring that no firearm in the holder’s possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.




It doesn't say room of stout construction, it says "steel and concrete strongroom". In no part are 'strongroom' and 'stout construction' in the same sentence, hence the 'chopped and changed'.

From what I've seen a strong room needs to have steel door frames and plywood instead of gib. A hoolie bar or a good boot makes quick work of wooden framed doorways.

Originally Posted by Maca49

The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!

The point being is when you actually read the law and go off his description then he most probably isn't complying. He didn't mention his room being steel or concrete?

Actually reading the law is always a good start.

O

Originally Posted by Savage1

19Conditions relating to security precautions
(1)Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following conditions:
(a)the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
(b)the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and ammunition for it in his or her possession, either—
(i)shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the ammunition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains access to the ammunition; or
(ii)shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
(c)the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holder’s possession is secured against theft:
(d)the holder shall, where he or she has possession of a firearm that is—
(i)a flare pistol; or
(ii)a humane killer; or
(iii)a stock marking pistol,—
keep it in a locked container, except where it is under the holder’s immediate and personal supervision.
(2)On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) shall include—
(a)keeping on the holder’s premises—
(i)a lockable cabinet, container, or receptacle of stout construction in which firearms may be stored; or
(ii)a lockable steel and concrete strongroom in which firearms may be stored; or
(iii)a display cabinet or rack in which firearms may be immobilised and locked so that none of them may be fired; and
(b)keeping locked or immobilised and locked in the cabinet, container, receptacle, strongroom, display cabinet, or rack required by paragraph (a) every firearm which is on the holder’s premises and which is not under immediate and personal supervision of the holder or some other holder of a firearms licence; and
(c)ensuring that no firearm in the holder’s possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.




It doesn't say room of stout construction, it says "steel and concrete strongroom". In no part are 'strongroom' and 'stout construction' in the same sentence, hence the 'chopped and changed'.

From what I've seen a strong room needs to have steel door frames and plywood instead of gib. A hoolie bar or a good boot work of wooden framed doorways.

Can you ensure every AO in NZ gets a copy of this and abide by it? Fat chance I'd say. The fact this thread exists shows you what a mess the system is in IMHO