Thread: Separate Ammo Compartment in a Safe

thank god we dont have a legal act for wiping your arse cause wed all be doing it wrong .

At the last FCAF meeting we were presented with statistics on gun thefts. A lot of them occured because the burgular auctually found the keys. Police are also very concerned with criminals being able to get their hands on ammo to feed their illegal guns, and they are doing everything to prevent crims getting their hands on ammo. So when you put those 2 issues together you can see why the AO's push what they have been told to push.

Thanks for all the helpful advice, everyone! I’ve decided to go with the ammo tin padlocked inside the safe as many of you suggested. I’ll also make sure the keys are kept separate as recommended to stay on the safe side. Much appreciated!

Originally Posted by veryfuturistic

Relevant portion of the Arms Regulations 1992 for those who are interested

In addition to the condition in subclause (1)(b) relating to ammunition, ammu‐
nition must be stored—
(a) in its own secure storage container (such as a cash box or an ammunition
box that is in secure storage or in a stout locked cupboard) that has—
(i) a locking mechanism that has a key or combination number that
is different from the key or combination number for the person’s
container for firearms; or
(ii) a padlock that has a key or combination number that is different
from the key or combination number for the person’s container for
firearms; or
(b) in a lock box in a gun safe cabinet that has a different key from the key
for the gun safe cabinet, and the key for the gun safe cabinet must be
stored in a different place from the other key; or
(c) if the ammunition is bulky and difficult to store in a container, in a
locked room or storage area on the licence holder’s premises that—
(i) is of sufficiently robust construction to prevent the theft of the
ammunition; and
(ii) has been inspected and approved by a member of the Police

When renewing I had a funny experience with the ammo safe. Had a padlocked/deadbolted cupboard which I used (one may have described it as "stout"), well separate from safe. Not up to snuff, needs to be a locked container. My reckons about someone being able to abscond with a container easier than a cupboard were brushed aside. In any case I bought some ammo tins, padlocked them, and now they go in the locked cupboard. I don't really know if that was the correct application of the regulations but as @m101a1 said, no point arguing when it cost me $50 to do it their way.

Thanks for providing that, I was wrong to question it and will now move a key off one key ring on to another to comply

Originally Posted by veryfuturistic

Relevant portion of the Arms Regulations 1992 for those who are interested

In addition to the condition in subclause (1)(b) relating to ammunition, ammu‐
nition must be stored—
(a) in its own secure storage container (such as a cash box or an ammunition
box that is in secure storage or in a stout locked cupboard) that has—
(i) a locking mechanism that has a key or combination number that
is different from the key or combination number for the person’s
container for firearms; or
(ii) a padlock that has a key or combination number that is different
from the key or combination number for the person’s container for
firearms; or
(b) in a lock box in a gun safe cabinet that has a different key from the key
for the gun safe cabinet, and the key for the gun safe cabinet must be
stored in a different place from the other key; or
(c) if the ammunition is bulky and difficult to store in a container, in a
locked room or storage area on the licence holder’s premises that—
(i) is of sufficiently robust construction to prevent the theft of the
ammunition; and
(ii) has been inspected and approved by a member of the Police

When renewing I had a funny experience with the ammo safe. Had a padlocked/deadbolted cupboard which I used (one may have described it as "stout"), well separate from safe. Not up to snuff, needs to be a locked container. My reckons about someone being able to abscond with a container easier than a cupboard were brushed aside. In any case I bought some ammo tins, padlocked them, and now they go in the locked cupboard. I don't really know if that was the correct application of the regulations but as @m101a1 said, no point arguing when it cost me $50 to do it their way.

Thanks that is quite interesting.

I note there is no mention of the key for the ammo storage and the safe being stored in different places until "b" and b has the ammunition stored in the gun safe.
Thinking about this it is quite logical that the key for the ammo container and key for the safe should be stored in separate places because if both keys are together then if they find the key for the safe then they have the key for the ammo.

If the ammo is stared somewhere else and the safe in a different location, then they have to find the location of both before they have access to both if the keys are stored in the same place.

I'm breaking my rule of not providing sources, so please take this with a grain of salt, but a few points:

1) I believe the ammunition storage rules may be different for specific ammunition that fits an endorsed firearm also in the safe. I can't remember if it's only specific endorsements or all endorsements, but I remember that there was a difference in legislation between A category and all other endorsed categories. It's somewhere in the arms act or NZ police policies. Obviously the Arms Act is actual law, whereas police policies are their interpretation or infilling of vague Arms Act sections, so it pays to get a lawyer's input.

2) As has been posted, the most recent law changes added the clause saying you can't store your ammo and gun keys on the same keychain, and the key profile or combination must not be the same for ammo and firearm locks.
2A) The solution for this is to get combo locks for one, or both, and set the combinations differently. This' usually easier for ammo cases

3) While calling the FSA for guidance is one option, they tend to take the strictest, and often way beyond legal requirement interpretation of what could be done and present it as a legal minimum requirement. Take what they say with a large grain of salt because usually at least some of what they're saying isn't required, just something they'd like. While exceeding legal minimums is always a good practice, it's important to know your rights and obligations, especially because as firearms owners, we tend to get pushed around a fair bit by the FSA and police, so it's good to know when they're out to lunch and making stuff up.

In this case again, speak to a lawyer to get the actual legal requirements, rather than the FSA's wishlist on what the law would be if they wrote it.

I've got my ammo stored in a galvanised, locked toolbox in a different building to my rifles etc. The toolbox is also screwed to the wooden floor wit half a dozen wood screws from the inside. The inspector was really happy with it

Originally Posted by bumblefoot

I've got my ammo stored in a galvanised, locked toolbox in a different building to my rifles etc. The toolbox is also screwed to the wooden floor wit half a dozen wood screws from the inside. The inspector was really happy with it

Good for you, you had a reasonable inspector mine tried to warn me against having my ammo and bolt together in the same lock box which is inside a locked 20ft container same as the gun safe which is bolted to the container, i kindly said oh ok can you point me to the guidelines in the arms act you are carrying and then after reading she tried backtracking and waffling for abit. i mentioned that having to separate ammo and bolt that are inside a locked steel container which in itself counts as secured storage is all legal going by what the manual says and it is. Neighbour had to renew 6 months ago and pulled him up on his wood cabinet so he got one of them school type lockers to replace it and that's all good ticked the boxes apparently, i managed to get into his safe with a flathead screwdriver in 10 seconds so we could replace the lock when he lost the keys so no consistency anywhere

Interesting comments, my approach has been to follow the legislation AND bearing in mind that I had to work bloody hard to earn the money that paid for my FAL, my rifles and my ammo.....so when it comes to security I've gone above and beyond....my safe is two compartments with individual doors and two different locks and it's made out of 6mm steel plate, it has 6 x 8mm screws going into structural hardwood and 4 going into the floor joists....and I put my house on top of a hill on 3 metre stumps and have 2 guard dogs.......my point being, when it comes to FA security, there's no such thing as too much....the law is the bare minimum, where else in life do you do "the bare minimum"?

Originally Posted by bumblefoot

I've got my ammo stored in a galvanised, locked toolbox in a different building to my rifles etc. The toolbox is also screwed to the wooden floor wit half a dozen wood screws from the inside. The inspector was really happy with it

That's what I've gone for...A guy in Auckland came home late one night to find his front door (which he had left locked) open, and encountered the intruder pointing his rifle at him. The house owner assumed the firearm was loaded (it was) as he had stored the bolt and ammo together in the safe. Don't be that guy! Don't fixate on the law, do what is best for your safety.

A locked ammo box inside your safe is fine according to the latest rules.

Originally Posted by John Duxbury

A locked ammo box inside your safe is fine according to the latest rules.

Not according to my inspector or what others hear from inspectors, to much interpretation going on when it comes to safe inspections for license renewals, change of address etc

Originally Posted by Zedrex

Interesting comments, my approach has been to follow the legislation AND bearing in mind that I had to work bloody hard to earn the money that paid for my FAL, my rifles and my ammo.....so when it comes to security I've gone above and beyond....my safe is two compartments with individual doors and two different locks and it's made out of 6mm steel plate, it has 6 x 8mm screws going into structural hardwood and 4 going into the floor joists....and I put my house on top of a hill on 3 metre stumps and have 2 guard dogs.......my point being, when it comes to FA security, there's no such thing as too much....the law is the bare minimum, where else in life do you do "the bare minimum"?

who said anything about bare minimum? and the point is FSA is not following there own guidelines in some respects

While it's well worth exceeding the law, it pays to know what the law is so you can tell when someone is jerking you around and making stuff up.

It's good to exceed the law, but if you don't know what the actual requirements are, the inspector can (and increasingly will) make up some other thing they want you to do regardless of how much extra you have done. Usually it's something that isn't practical to you because you would have already done it as part of all the other things you did to surpass requirements, and if you don't know the legal requirements, you can end up with a very expensive, inconvenient, and completely unnecessary home project being imposed on you.

To encourage my laziness - can anyone tell me if a normal.177 slug gun requires the same level of storage security as a firearm?