Thread: Support for tighter Acat storage

The ring bolt and chain/lock is a minimum recommendation, for the likes of your hunting crib/batch etc, yes it is passed as primeray storage in some instances but generally it is expected you have better storage at your place of residence and rightly so IMO.

However....one needs to be very bloody careful about recommending law change around rifle storage as it would be difficult for most to carry the 200kilo e cat safe and battery powered dynadrill to bolt it to the nearest rock to securely store your state of the art carbon stock carbon wrapped barrel carbon muffler pencil barreled rifle on a multiday foot hunt.

For the record I think a steel safe should be a minimum in your place of residence BUT

If I wanted to gain entry to a steel safe, 100 dollar safe or 1000 dollar safe would make virtually no difference at all.

If you really want to defeat entry you need to be looking at bank vault type stuff and I cant see uni students or tire fitters paying for that (or most other firearms owners)

Our best defense is a competent Police force intent on solving crime and a justice system that backs the police by sensible sentencing.

Now if anybody has ideas on how we could get that I am all ears!

I would encourage everyone to have security that can't be kicked open like I did on a deceased family members on my last trip home. Our current standards for A cat were set to keep guns from kids and have worked well for this. Your never going to stop a crim who knows it's there and wants to get in- but stopping a junky just looking for stuff to swap for there next fix is doable most of the time.

But actually changing the law? I don't see that helping much if at all for all the reasons others have already mentioned.

Changing rules around semi autos seems pointless, especially if you exclude shotguns and rimfire.

Making things more restrictive for legal gun owners just to be seen to be coming to the party on cracking down on crime is silly unless it will actually make a real difference-otherwise in a few years we will have to make another pointless gesture as the last one wasn't working.

I hate to say it as the op doesn't want to go there, but the area that seems to need work is sentencing for arms crime-at the moment there doesn't seem to be much reason for a crim to advoid guns

Oh oh a e-cat permit to buy only ammo that shoots through a e-cat...


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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Any engineering supplier.

And I was trying to keep that a secret.

give me some evidence it will do some good and i will say Yes . . . but if its something like ' i just feel its a good idea ' then its No, pandering to the hysterical who are scared of everything does no good in the long run,

so when they wanted bayonet lugs removed from rifles . . . how many people had been actually bayoneted in NZ

R.

Originally Posted by Macca

Yeah... I'm the one that brought this up because of my recent change of address. I'm a student in a rental and convinced my property manager/landlord to let me install my pistol safe (20mm holes in newly carpeted floor). I also only currently use a single eye bolt with chain/padlocks/cables/trigger locks to secure my .22 and my Ar15. looking back on my $2 eye bolt security I thought to myself how abysmal it was for me to secure my firearms like that knowing that any criminal breaking in would likely have some basic hand tools or bolt cutter to get through it when they find it (2 bedroom home so not many places). The house is alarmed but that's not exactly going to stop a targeted attack from my blackpower neighbors who may or may not have seen me transfer a rifle bag to the boot of my car that i took every precaution to reverse as close to my door as possible.

Anyways I'm planning on transferring my firearms to a friend's house with better storage till I save for an Ecat safe when the police finally tell us what is allowed (recent debacle)... my pistol however... that's going to have to stay in there and hope whichever fucker breaks in doesn't have a decent grinder or 7 foot crowbar (it's Auckland so it will happen).

So no, not everyone who mentions tighter controls are the "ones with their own homes", and not everyone has the integrity to take a look at their security and say it isn't doing everything I can to secure MY firearms and protect OUR sport from crims/MPs/gun grabbers/media etc.

Oh and @Jexla I also have a cat...
His name is Kobie
Yes he has 3 legs

Attachment 73656

You're lucky you've convinced your overseers. I spent the money to get a safe as I also have E/C endorsements. I've gotten to the point where I just don't tell them and just do it and deal with whatever consequences when I move out. It's not ideal, but beats not having a place to live.

Cats and gun safes are serious deal breakers for landlords for some reason. I guess they'd rather children drawing all over their walls

Originally Posted by Beavis

Why would you exempt .22's and Shotguns? They are statistically the most commonly criminally mis-used firearms. What would you achieve by making all semi autos E category, when they are barely used in any crime at all?

Agree. First off, Macca, thanks for starting this thread, well worth talking about.

Security depends on so much more than the safe itself, several here having already raised points about sanding discs, etc etc for the determined. Hiding the safe in plain sight is massively valuable. Also avoiding blabbing about your guns (club membership may be a double edged sword in this regard). Separating out ammo and bolts from the a-cat firearm too (and why not separate bolts from ammo while we are at it?). I think the better approach is not to go the legislative way (give an inch and someone will take it a mile) but to just foster excellent security in excess of what is required of us -- while still allowing beginners a low-cost start-up in the sport. After all, an upright gun safe is a lot less hassle than a bracket and people eventually buy one if they have more than a few guns.

The point, re excempting .22s from the proposed E-cat storage requirements is not based on fact but springs from a misperception of them as purely sport weapons, maybe even less dangerous than say a .308 bolt action. Sure, it is unsuitable for stalking presidential cavalcades from book repository buildings, yet a silenced .22 semi is probably the one gun you don't want sick evil bastards to have, going out and about from house to house, room to room, killing people without the alarm getting raised too early: think David Gray (Aramoana) and Bain (Dunedin).

The ubiquity of the silenced .22 semi-auto in NZ is chilling, and you will not get a competent cop investigating a burglary draw a sigh of relief if you tell him, "It's only my suppressed Ruger 10/22 that's missing, just as well they left the powerful rifles!" There is really no case for excepting such guns, any guns, from such a proposed E-cat-safe-for-all idea. But then again, legislation is not always based purely on reason, it just has to appear reasonable.

Friends of mine near Te Puke were burgled recently and only firearms and ammo targeted/stolen. The nincompoop crim left his gloves at the scene and long story short, was caught and charged through some bloody impressive police work.
Guns taken are yet to be recovered.
My key point is, the flimsy wooden cabinet was no match for the crim and he had access within seconds. The ammo was also stored in an open cupboard above the cabinet. Obviously this theft had the potential to result in a tragic disaster. Luckily it didn't.
I agree with Maca that the minimum security requirements should be raised, for the community's sake as well as to protect our investments


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Originally Posted by Hunt4life

Friends of mine near Te Puke were burgled recently and only firearms and ammo targeted/stolen. The nincompoop crim left his gloves at the scene and long story short, was caught and charged through some bloody impressive police work.
Guns taken are yet to be recovered.
My key point is, the flimsy wooden cabinet was no match for the crim and he had access within seconds. The ammo was also stored in an open cupboard above the cabinet. Obviously this theft had the potential to result in a tragic disaster. Luckily it didn't.
I agree with Maca that the minimum security requirements should be raised, for the community's sake as well as to protect our investments
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Hunt4Life, thanks for bringing this case to our attention. Some points.

1. Too early to say, "luckily it didn't", don't you think?

2. Minimum A-cat security requirement by law is "sturdy construction". How does this case demonstrate the law should be tightened?

I am not sure what side of the argument I fall on this yet (havent weighed everything up)
I would like see of stolen firearms, what security were they stolen from? (Chain cut, safe cut, stolen out of a car, safe left open, not secured at all etc) as seen recently a safe isnt worth dick if its left open. I know that in these examples owners stupidity is a factor but it would be interesting to see how often this is a factor.
I would like to think (in a perfect world) that all firearms owners would do the best they can in their circumstances.
The reason I say this is when I bought my first rifle I simply didnt have the funds to get an ecat safe but I did have the resources to get an A cat safe (not necissarily the cheapest either). So I got an a-cat safe coach bolted it through the building frame, dyna bolted it to the concrete in an area that is not easily visable and stored the bolt in a lock box in a different location. While not the maximum security not the minimum either. The point being as a responsible firearms owner I would be mortified if my rifle was taken from my posession and used to harm someone if I had not done everything I could to (within my personal circumstances) prevent it. As my circumstances change so to does my level of resources I can apply to meeting my responsibility.

After installing security alarms and surveillance systems quite a few years now i will tell you the best security is anonymity, dont tell people you have firearms because people talk and word gets around.
I had a safe built, its only 1.5mm thick but double folded door etc, the best thing is that after it was built i glued in mdf panels. cutting blades dont like a mix of the 2 !
Get a decent security system, dont buy a self install job from jaycar etc, same with camera systems. You might think you are saving $$ but you are throwing it away.
But most importantly is to get through to these idiot judges that 100 hours of stealing and selling deadly weapons is a disgrace. The punishments should be severe not a slap on the wrist.

Originally Posted by Pineapple

I am not sure what side of the argument I fall on this yet (havent weighed everything up)
I would like see of stolen firearms, what security were they stolen from? (Chain cut, safe cut, stolen out of a car, safe left open, not secured at all etc) as seen recently a safe isnt worth dick if its left open. I know that in these examples owners stupidity is a factor but it would be interesting to see how often this is a factor.
I would like to think (in a perfect world) that all firearms owners would do the best they can in their circumstances.
The reason I say this is when I bought my first rifle I simply didnt have the funds to get an ecat safe but I did have the resources to get an A cat safe (not necissarily the cheapest either). So I got an a-cat safe coach bolted it through the building frame, dyna bolted it to the concrete in an area that is not easily visable and stored the bolt in a lock box in a different location. While not the maximum security not the minimum either. The point being as a responsible firearms owner I would be mortified if my rifle was taken from my posession and used to harm someone if I had not done everything I could to (within my personal circumstances) prevent it. As my circumstances change so to does my level of resources I can apply to meeting my responsibility.

This sums it up nicely

Originally Posted by gonetropo

After installing security alarms and surveillance systems quite a few years now i will tell you the best security is anonymity, dont tell people you have firearms because people talk and word gets around.
I had a safe built, its only 1.5mm thick but double folded door etc, the best thing is that after it was built i glued in mdf panels. cutting blades dont like a mix of the 2 !
Get a decent security system, dont buy a self install job from jaycar etc, same with camera systems. You might think you are saving $$ but you are throwing it away.
But most importantly is to get through to these idiot judges that 100 hours of stealing and selling deadly weapons is a disgrace. The punishments should be severe not a slap on the wrist.

Sounds good, who's going to move that to my next rental for me?

Originally Posted by gonetropo

After installing security alarms and surveillance systems quite a few years now i will tell you the best security is anonymity, dont tell people you have firearms because people talk and word gets around.

I had a safe built, its only 1.5mm thick but double folded door etc, the best thing is that after it was built i glued in mdf panels. cutting blades dont like a mix of the 2 !

@gonetropo with you on keeping mom. Do tell more of your MDF glue-in project. Where did you get that idea from?

Anyone else have simple ideas for increasing an A-cat safe's resistance?

Originally Posted by Jexla

Sounds good, who's going to move that to my next rental for me?

Sell your guns and use the money towards a deposit for a house.