Thread: Thermal Optics under scrutiny?

If you ever find a cheap blue Lazer pointer.grab it. Makes life much easier for shooting partners when can point out the rabbit/wallaby 25 yards away in long grass. Hunting with Jack for years nearly drove me nuts trying to point stuff out to him.we got good at using geography to get him looking in right area,movement of animal usually did the rest...usually.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

If you ever find a cheap blue Lazer pointer.grab it. Makes life much easier for shooting partners when can point out the rabbit/wallaby 25 yards away in long grass. Hunting with Jack for years nearly drove me nuts trying to point stuff out to him.we got good at using geography to get him looking in right area,movement of animal usually did the rest...usually.

The Sytong thermal spotters have a laser function for that purpose. Goes a long way.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

But I do struggle with small red berries and blood drops.

Its all in the taste

Originally Posted by stagstalker

End of the day this thread is just a heap of opinions from my quick scan. Thermals are here to stay and they aren’t going anywhere, regardless of how you feel about them. Do what makes you happy and enjoy.

Fare call ..one could say there are those who shoot things and those who are known ti be hunters.

Deaded. Still had to get there, bone it, carry it. It was good for me. I'm not going to be shamed. Sometimes I'm a hunter, sometimes I'm a shooter. Depends on context. This time a charity wanted 23kg of venison ...

Dead deer, that's all that matters.My son n law down Mossburn way.Him n mate out on farm bush edge,shot 4 deer last night.Just keep back steaks.Last Tuesday night,they shot only 2,big hind n spiker,only keep back steaks.No room in freezers for hqs.They see about 20-30 deer per night on different farms.Southland over run with deer on farms near doc land n private forests.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Deaded. Still had to get there, bone it, carry it. It was good for me. I'm not going to be shamed. Sometimes I'm a hunter, sometimes I'm a shooter. Depends on context. This time a charity wanted 23kg of venison ...

Attachment 259183

I hope my opinions havnt come across as shaming anyone. I think how you are using the thermal and what you are doing with the meat should be an example of really good use.

I do though think that as a group, we are not good at sitting down and working out what is appropriate and what sensible limits we should put on novel ideas/tech etc. So that its not abused and so that it doesn't have a future negative impact.

Your posts, by the way, have me very close to buying a Sytong clip on as a tool to control hares, and also so that I can accurately gauge my wild animal populations and manage them. Whether that be continue not to shoot, or decide to start harvesting.

As I said, Im not against them. Im just super cautious of and can see how they can have an unwanted impact.

Ive just been made aware of an awesome article from Jeff Kerr on the issue we face with our Tahr herd in NZ Hunter. I had a quick read and one bit really stuck out for me. I think its what I rail against the most and what upsets me.

To paraphrase and borrow from him in his discussion on Tahr.

What hunting In NZ suffers from the most, is the tragedy of the commons.


https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Alas, until legislation changes to reflect the status of our higher order mammals as a valued resource instead of as a pest I don't see us being able to move the conversation forward in a meaningful manner.

I have found using a thermal around the farm as a brilliant tool. Not just for finding hares (esp when you are planting young trees!), but for finding studs on the side of the house, where the house is losing lots of warmth from, how much fuel is in the farm diesel tank from hundreds of m away, instead of having to go over and dip it. The list is endless. But back to animals. A mate and I were shooting hares on the property. One had gone to ground. Absolutely could not see it through the scope with the spotlight on. Mate with thermal was able to talk me on: "200, reference lone tree, two cow pats to the left, funny looking clump of grass, a foot to the left, hare in prone position" Bang! dead hare. Another time three of us were deer hunting. We'd spent half an hour, with what amounted to 12 grands worth of high quality binos checking out a highly likely spot in December. Not a sausage. Mate with thermal says "how many deer do you think are out there?" We both reckon there may be a couple we haven't spotted. "6. All within 3 hundy of us"
Even knowing just where they were, it took forever to find them in the scope. As it was the Xmas freezer filler trip we shot as many as we could. As the managers had said the gunships will come in if the numbers stay this high.

Originally Posted by XR500

Alas, until legislation changes to reflect the status of our higher order mammals as a valued resource instead of as a pest I don't see us being able to move the conversation forward in a meaningful manner.

I have found using a thermal around the farm as a brilliant tool. Not just for finding hares (esp when you are planting young trees!), but for finding studs on the side of the house, where the house is losing lots of warmth from, how much fuel is in the farm diesel tank from hundreds of m away, instead of having to go over and dip it. The list is endless. But back to animals. A mate and I were shooting hares on the property. One had gone to ground. Absolutely could not see it through the scope with the spotlight on. Mate with thermal was able to talk me on: "200, reference lone tree, two cow pats to the left, funny looking clump of grass, a foot to the left, hare in prone position" Bang! dead hare. Another time three of us were deer hunting. We'd spent half an hour, with what amounted to 12 grands worth of high quality binos checking out a highly likely spot in December. Not a sausage. Mate with thermal says "how many deer do you think are out there?" We both reckon there may be a couple we haven't spotted. "6. All within 3 hundy of us"
Even knowing just where they were, it took forever to find them in the scope. As it was the Xmas freezer filler trip we shot as many as we could. As the managers had said the gunships will come in if the numbers stay this high.

The more forestry blocks they plant the more deer they just print. Huge incubator for deer. Ex venison shooter has full time job culling deer in forestry with suppressed 308.

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Ive just been made aware of an awesome article from Jeff Kerr on the issue we face with our Tahr herd in NZ Hunter. I had a quick read and one bit really stuck out for me. I think its what I rail against the most and what upsets me.

To paraphrase and borrow from him in his discussion on Tahr.

What hunting In NZ suffers from the most, is the tragedy of the commons.


https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

What you are suggesting I think is that hunters act in self interest depleting the resource and that the use of thermals might compound this. Not necessarily.

A conservation approach can go hand in hand with thermals (spotters in the case of public land), and can enhance it. E.g. the identification and culling of females only and avoiding shooting velvet stags. Modern spotters are capable of helping make these decisions and critically can help increase the over all take of females.

We the hunters just need to make good and appropriate decisions when we take full advantage of advances in technology, and thus mitigate the "commons effect".

Yeah thats what I wish for.

The Wapiti herd is an example of that Where what you state is close too the case. The Tahr herd is one where the opposite is currently happening. The difference with the wapiti, is a sustained and well built set of ethics that are largely adhered too. All most too the point of being regulation.

Heres an example, a personnel one. I managed a herd of fallow on my property up north. Initially it was low quality as far as antler form etc. But about 10 years ago 4 or 5 bucks from I presume, a nearby game park, escaped and set up on the property. I immediately set about shooting every low quality buck I could find, while putting a ban on shooting young bucks and good heads. Another couple of properties did the same.
But the bucks didnt stay all year on these places, and in summer they would head out too other nearby properties, where the hunters targeted them at night with thermal because the velvet glowed and you cant eat antler.

So in this thread we have seen, "ethics is personal". "I'll do what suits me".

So how do we get too the point you make below without a general accepted ethic?

[QUOTE]We the hunters just need to make good and appropriate decisions when we take full advantage of advances in technology, and thus mitigate the "commons effect"./QUOTE]


Dont get me wrong, Right now the tragedy might well be not shooting enough females.

Problem is that we all want different things. Some want deer eradicated, some want easy access to a meat animal, others want trophy heads. The legal status of deer needs addressing before we can even start to have discussions about ethics.

I have been following this thread with interest. This weekend I was working on my concrete steps. Codesign oncrete mixing and stripping boxing provides a lot of time for thinking. So this is my thoughts on thermals.

I think discussing this topic against a bench mark of "Ethics" might not be the correct measuring stick. I'd been thinking about the use of thermal against the measuring stick of, "The Four P's," Purist, Pragmatist, Provider, Pest Controller.

To me a Purist hunts with a fully wooded, military, centrefire, bolt action rifle, with V or aperture sights, in military calibres such as 6.5x55 Swedish, 303, 30-06, 8x57 Mauser etc Or perhaps even a black powder musket. I only know one Purist. He goes into the bush with a single shot rifle (no magazine) and only takes four cartridges, one for the deer and three for signalling if he gets into trouble. He has shot way more BIG stags than me and is the best hunter I know, but even he has a telescopic scope.

A Pragmatist is sensible enough to know that but fitting a telescopic scope (and bipod, and using a range finder) to a more modern sporting rifle, possibly still in a military calibre, will increase the likelihood of putting meat on the table. Pragmatists have embraced telescopic scopes since the beginning of last century and range finders have been common place this century. A Pragmatist is likely to be a Trophy hunter who believe in "fare chase," and who does one or two trips a years year, perhaps after wapiti or thar, or during the roar. They might use spotting scope or binoculars, but draw the line at thermals. These are sports/recreational hunters.

A Provider's objective is to put meat in the freezer for family, friends, relatives, the community or local charities. Providers will use whatever technology is available to achieve the desired outcome as quickly and efficiently as possible. They are not hunting for trophy animals, but may come across them, and choose whether to harvest them of leave them in the gene pool. They hunt often, daily or weekly, and are looking for quantity of quality and often hunt at night.

Pest Controllers are getting paid per head (or tail) or per hour, and use whatever and all technology to achieve maximum tallies. Sometimes the meat is utilised, but more often than not is left to rot, which is a shame, but the cost/time of recovering large numbers of animals is prohibitive. If a system could be put in place to recover and process Pest Controller kill, we could feed the while village. Some of us do try to do a bity for charity.

So those are my thoughts and as each of us head to the back country, the local QEII covenant, the forestry block, or the back of the farm, we will each decide which of "The Four P's," Purist, Pragmatist, Provider, Pest Controller, we represent and take appropriate actions and appropriate equipment.

With regards to judging one another, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!" And that, sure as hell, will not be me!

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Ive just been made aware of an awesome article from Jeff Kerr on the issue we face with our Tahr herd in NZ Hunter. I had a quick read and one bit really stuck out for me. I think its what I rail against the most and what upsets me.

To paraphrase and borrow from him in his discussion on Tahr.

What hunting In NZ suffers from the most, is the tragedy of the commons.


https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Applies to most things in life doesn’t it.