Thread: Thermal Optics under scrutiny?

dead right Sika 8 does not take long and deer become very nocturnal - and spooky - when we did a lot of spotlighting for sale at times we would light up 10 and only get 3-4 if lucky the rest very educated after that

Numbers. One wairarapa place I shoot next to have trapped 800 in 3 years. Another place Brian and I have shot 200 off and recently the farmer 30 in one go and we still see 20 or 30 odd most evenings. And on another 3 of us saw over 150 in 2 nights. Shot 4. And these places also have a chopper run through to cream them every year too. And the most heavily hunted public spot in the wairarapa is still full of deer. If these numbers aren’t got on top of one way or another it will be an environmental disaster in a couple more years. Everywhere I go the bush is stripped.
And the answer isn’t letting more hunters on. Picking at them won’t work.

you are right Thar great fun but control no - some of the fallow populations down towards Wanganui the same - and the attitude from the landowners dont shoot does well you and I know thats exactly what they need to be doing - no a chopper every now and then is the way to go -a lot on here fear aerial poisoning and rightly so - at the moment DOC have clearly stated in policy documents they will not use aerial 1080 on deer - lets hope it stays that way - but they are not the only agency are they - and its not as easy as many would think -its not as simple as going out with possum buckets - buckets would need modifying - pellets would need to be a lot bigger and a stronger dose possibly - no one is geared up for it thankfully -and the public outcry well lets hope it would be huge if it was put foward

Originally Posted by Tahr

Numbers. One wairarapa place I shoot next to have trapped 800 in 3 years. Another place Brian and I have shot 200 off and recently the farmer 30 in one go and we still see 20 or 30 odd most evenings. And on another 3 of us saw over 150 in 2 nights. Shot 4. And these places also have a chopper run through to cream them every year too. And the most heavily hunted public spot in the wairarapa is still full of deer. If these numbers aren’t got on top of one way or another it will be an environmental disaster in a couple more years. Everywhere I go the bush is stripped.
And the answer isn’t letting more hunters on. Picking at them won’t work.

I agree with you. Conversely over the last few years Ive seen what can be achieved by 2 guys with sole access too around 3000+ hectares.

I think the private land deer issue is one that needs solving. And solving that will go along way to reducing public land numbers.

But as Ive said, the average recreational hunter isn't concerned with control in reality. its about "easy" deer and controlling numbers works against that.

Whats your ideas for a solution?

Originally Posted by whanahuia

I agree with you. Conversely over the last few years Ive seen what can be achieved by 2 guys with sole access too around 3000+ hectares.

I think the private land deer issue is one that needs solving. And solving that will go along way to reducing public land numbers.

But as Ive said, the average recreational hunter isn't concerned with control in reality. its about "easy" deer and controlling numbers works against that.

Whats your ideas for a solution?

I think your last paragraph is the problem.
I have no problem with the Hunter that goes out once a month to shoot a meat animal, all I'd say to that person when you shoot your one in a group of 5 try knock the other 5 over as well, then you get 5 sets of back steaks easy win for your freezer and the hills.
I do realsie that there is property's around with deer high numbers but I don't buy into the private land being the problem, all the farms around here use chopper shooting twice a year, we have cullers coming in at night with thermal gear doing all the farms in the area.
All at our cost and these animals are all coming from the forest parks.
I'm just trying to offer a farmers view on it we often get accused of not doing our bit, but the gates open from the park and that the hunters not doing there bit.

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Originally Posted by BRADS

I think your last paragraph is the problem.
I have no problem with the Hunter that goes out once a month to shoot a meat animal, all I'd say to that person when you shoot your one in a group of 5 try knock the other 5 over as well, then you get 5 sets of back steaks easy win for your freezer and the hills.
I do realsie that there is property's around with deer high numbers but I don't buy into the private land being the problem, all the farms around here use chopper shooting twice a year, we have cullers coming in at night with thermal gear doing all the farms in the area.
All at our cost and these animals are all coming from the forest parks.
I'm just trying to offer a farmers view on it we often get accused of not doing our bit, but the gates open from the park and that the hunters not doing there bit.

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It's a shared, cross-tenure problem.

Forests provide shelter.

Pastoral land provides feed.

There is not enough feed in the Ruahine forest to support a fraction of the population of deer. The most available and practical place to target deer for control is in open pastoral country.

Unfortunately with cross-tenure problems come different sets of values, and different priorities.

Originally Posted by gimp

It's a shared, cross-tenure problem.

Forests provide shelter.

Pastoral land provides feed.

There is not enough feed in the Ruahine forest to support a fraction of the population of deer. The most available and practical place to target deer for control is in open pastoral country.

Unfortunately with cross-tenure problems come different sets of values, and different priorities.

Yeah I get that 100%
But hunters need to step up when you can get to the tops with your kids and see mobs of deer running around that arnt frequenting farmland I believe there's the issue.
It's no secret that numbers out of hand, as a kid you'd never see a single deer around here now people are hitting them in cars on the road.
The first people to complain when the choppers come and do search and destroy is the hunters.


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bit of a problem to Brads with hunters ability's -- roar time down the lake at Waikaremoana 12 visiting hunters 5-6 day trip - all drinking up large -little bit of hunting effort 6 deer - same period of time our top two local meat hunters 10-12 deer -

Originally Posted by BRADS

I think your last paragraph is the problem.
I have no problem with the Hunter that goes out once a month to shoot a meat animal, all I'd say to that person when you shoot your one in a group of 5 try knock the other 5 over as well, then you get 5 sets of back steaks easy win for your freezer and the hills.
I do realsie that there is property's around with deer high numbers but I don't buy into the private land being the problem, all the farms around here use chopper shooting twice a year, we have cullers coming in at night with thermal gear doing all the farms in the area.
All at our cost and these animals are all coming from the forest parks.
I'm just trying to offer a farmers view on it we often get accused of not doing our bit, but the gates open from the park and that the hunters not doing there bit.

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every area is different. I get that backing onto the ruahines might mean more of a public land issue, but in the king country with lots of smaller areas of forest, its often the private land holding the numbers and restricted access.

The rate at which deer (and other wild animals) breed means that it is a "forever" job to keep on top of populations, to whatever level is required to achieve the outcomes the values of the landowner or manager dictate.

The phenomenal amount of effort input through the WARO and live capture of the 70s and 80s reduced numbers nationally to a particularly low point, and they have slowly built up again since at a national level. This varies locally of course. Some places they were never really low, other places they have not yet built up again.

The economic conditions behind that effort were unique and it will not happen again. The effort-per-deer put into live capture was equivalent to the effort (cost) that would be put into a localised eradication project (eradication in the wildlife management specific meaning of the word) - many thousands of dollars per deer.

There will never be another significant "one off reduction" of deer numbers like the 70s/80s again - and it wasn't truely a one-off so much as incredibly high sustained effort over 10-20 years - additional commercial harvest on top of existing NZFS control.

It is an ongoing population that requires ongoing management. Management effort needs to remove at least annual recruitment to prevent increase, and significantly more than annual recruitment initially to actually reduce numbers and hence impacts to protect whatever relevant values. Annual being the key word.

One spot I hunt,it's not unusual to walk past 20 deer on private land before reaching hunting block...and find single animal if work hard and are lucky. One trip I gave up counting after 16 on road and sixty on private. Saw 45 deer on road in another place one morning....all the stations in area are definitely not hunter friendly when approached no matter how politely.there is also large bits of public land that are either completely land locked ( eg rata peaks) or only accessible with large walk in to reach majority of block( eg Nimrod).access COULD be very easy,but it's denied.

The other bit is how the hunting is done with the average hunter - if they go in and find a group the average hunter takes the stag or a spiker with the sticky uppey bits. This is the wrong option to reduce numbers, every mature hind that is left is 3 deer in two years and five in four years, and from then on the numbers increase exponentially as the offspring mature. The other issue is sustained pressure results in ghosts who sneak and give you a lesson in geographic knowledge and how easy they can disappear into nothing!

Originally Posted by BRADS

If thermals help the average hunter control some of the booming numbers in the Forest Parks I support it fully.
Deer numbers are really getting out of hand, our Neighbours shot 250 deer in last month all from from the Ruahines.
People Need to shoot more deer, I don't like waste but numbers are to high and Im happy to shoot and Scoot as I think it's better than the alternatives...

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Sheez louise, 250 is huge numbers - I bet the quality and health of the animals sucked.

The ghosts,are one bonus with thermal...you SHOULD be able to find them before they spot you.

Originally Posted by gimp

The rate at which deer (and other wild animals) breed means that it is a "forever" job to keep on top of populations, to whatever level is required to achieve the outcomes the values of the landowner or manager dictate.

The phenomenal amount of effort input through the WARO and live capture of the 70s and 80s reduced numbers nationally to a particularly low point, and they have slowly built up again since at a national level. This varies locally of course. Some places they were never really low, other places they have not yet built up again.

The economic conditions behind that effort were unique and it will not happen again. The effort-per-deer put into live capture was equivalent to the effort (cost) that would be put into a localised eradication project (eradication in the wildlife management specific meaning of the word) - many thousands of dollars per deer.

There will never be another significant "one off reduction" of deer numbers like the 70s/80s again - and it wasn't truely a one-off so much as incredibly high sustained effort over 10-20 years - additional commercial harvest on top of existing NZFS control.

It is an ongoing population that requires ongoing management. Management effort needs to remove at least annual recruitment to prevent increase, and significantly more than annual recruitment initially to actually reduce numbers and hence impacts to protect whatever relevant values. Annual being the key word.

The future stressors will not be the same for sure. But everything to do with humans gos in cycles. Who thought 10 years ago wed see such a massive and quick reduction in the tahr herd?
Look at overseas models for where we will end up. And look at trout fishing In NZ for a similar scenario. Our population will increase and with that will come much more competition for all and any resources.

Areas such as the Ruahines, as mentioned earlier are really accessible and will become more and more popular. its happening outside of hunting all ready. Rangiwahia hut used to be a place you could go and have to yourself for example.