Thread: Useing the firearms register

Originally Posted by ronz

fair enough, thanks reminding me

No need to apologise you were stating facts

Originally Posted by BMcB

I was informed by someone who is on the Firearms Advisory Council that the wording of the act means that the registration of firearms will be reviewed after 5 years and if it's not working out then they can dump the register. However until that trial period is up it's pretty locked in. A change of government wouldn't be able to abolish it in their first term. If that's the case it's no use trying to wait out the election to delay registering. Personally I'd wait to have kinks ironed out, not due to trying to avoid it altogether.

yes and in those arenas minds are changed like we change underpants and without consultation.Until the FAC put something on paper in this regard(which it should have done !)I remain sceptical to put it politely.

Originally Posted by Timmay

We've got 5 years to update our firearms right? I'll see you guys in 59 months.

@Timmay , good to see your post

its going to fail, just a question of when. hell they couldnt even keep the register of B,C and E cat firearms current and accurate

Originally Posted by omark

No need to apologise you were stating facts

yep stating facts in a way which sees a moderator barking at you .the rule is clearly spelled out on here more than once!how do i know -been there done that

Originally Posted by ronz

Did he say that? Was that during his press conference?

It was in response to a query, and he intimated that it was the most common way someone got an illegal firearm.

Originally Posted by Growlybear

It was in response to a query, and he intimated that it was the most common way someone got an illegal firearm.

I do struggle with the continued push from the powers that be with the statement that this is the most common way - it would seem that the published stats do not support this but there may well be some other set of stats that does back this up. On the recently published stats, it would seem that there is a very small group of people who were issued licences who subsequently were found to not meet the "fit and proper" test who did engage in straw buying and on selling - but also there were a group who lost firearms through criminal action i.e. burglary. Nothing I saw supported the statement the most common way criminals got firearms were through unlawful sales by firearms license holders. It would seem that "if you want to keep claiming it, prove it" needs to happen there.

Either way, I cannot work out how a registry will stop loss through direct criminal action i.e. burglary - and without a mechanism to verify that the registered numbers match the contents of the registered person's safe it will only stop the law abiding from breaking the law (which ironically is exactly what the current laws do just at much lower cost as the law abiding weren't breaking the law anyway).

If they had the figures, they’d be all over them. But it builds fear.

What happens when say a registered semi auto shotgun is worn out or damaged and is no longer usable, what happens with it?

Originally Posted by Scotts

What happens when say a registered semi auto shotgun is worn out or damaged and is no longer usable, what happens with it?

Hand it in / surrender it or have it destroyed and take it off the register would be a logical step.

The main problem I have with the security of the resgister is that once it's leaked, it can't be recalled or stopped. What I mean is all it takes it for an internal or external breach of security and the whole lot is out in the open. Details such as addresses, names, and FAL numbers can't be easily changed by saying "Don't worry, we caught the offender, gave him/her an ankle bracelet".

We the leakee's can't easily change our address or what we have registered to us. Identity theft would be the best outcome in a situation that gives criminals access to all of our details and addresses. Who's going to step in when rural firearms owners start getting targeted by criminals intent on taking guns? The police wouldn't have time to respond, a fog cannon won't help, and god forbid you point as much as a pen at an intruder....

It just needs to be leaked once.

Originally Posted by No.3

I do struggle with the continued push from the powers that be with the statement that this is the most common way - it would seem that the published stats do not support this but there may well be some other set of stats that does back this up. On the recently published stats, it would seem that there is a very small group of people who were issued licences who subsequently were found to not meet the "fit and proper" test who did engage in straw buying and on selling - but also there were a group who lost firearms through criminal action i.e. burglary. Nothing I saw supported the statement the most common way criminals got firearms were through unlawful sales by firearms license holders. It would seem that "if you want to keep claiming it, prove it" needs to happen there.

Either way, I cannot work out how a registry will stop loss through direct criminal action i.e. burglary - and without a mechanism to verify that the registered numbers match the contents of the registered person's safe it will only stop the law abiding from breaking the law (which ironically is exactly what the current laws do just at much lower cost as the law abiding weren't breaking the law anyway).

somewhere in this whole controversial issue i distinctly remember NZ police sayin g they had identified 12persons with gang affiliations who were register FALO's.If further action /investigation was undertaken on those 12 is unknown.

Originally Posted by PadLo

The main problem I have with the security of the resgister is that once it's leaked, it can't be recalled or stopped. What I mean is all it takes it for an internal or external breach of security and the whole lot is out in the open. Details such as addresses, names, and FAL numbers can't be easily changed by saying "Don't worry, we caught the offender, gave him/her an ankle bracelet".

We the leakee's can't easily change our address or what we have registered to us. Identity theft would be the best outcome in a situation that gives criminals access to all of our details and addresses. Who's going to step in when rural firearms owners start getting targeted by criminals intent on taking guns? The police wouldn't have time to respond, a fog cannon won't help, and god forbid you point as much as a pen at an intruder....

It just needs to be leaked once.

IMO it's only a matter of time. Watching the talk that Mike Mcilraith gave to the Auckland Antique Arms assoc I recall him saying there were only about 20 sworn police officers out of 500 odd staff at Te Tari Pukeko. So you've got roughly 480 unsworn staff, many of whom will be helpdesk staff earning pretty average dollars, with at least some access to highly valuable (to the wrong sort of people anyway) private information. Sooner or later one of them will get leaned on by a gang and crack. Of course that's not to say that a sworn police officer has never been caught doing this type of thing...

Originally Posted by kotuku

somewhere in this whole controversial issue i distinctly remember NZ police sayin g they had identified 12persons with gang affiliations who were register FALO's.If further action /investigation was undertaken on those 12 is unknown.

And that's the conundrum with licensing, just because you at that time hold a firearms licence it doesn't automatically make you fit and proper. Even the highest position holders in Police, Justice etc can make bad life choices.

Originally Posted by PadLo

The main problem I have with the security of the resgister is that once it's leaked, it can't be recalled or stopped. What I mean is all it takes it for an internal or external breach of security and the whole lot is out in the open. Details such as addresses, names, and FAL numbers can't be easily changed by saying "Don't worry, we caught the offender, gave him/her an ankle bracelet".

We the leakee's can't easily change our address or what we have registered to us. Identity theft would be the best outcome in a situation that gives criminals access to all of our details and addresses. Who's going to step in when rural firearms owners start getting targeted by criminals intent on taking guns? The police wouldn't have time to respond, a fog cannon won't help, and god forbid you point as much as a pen at an intruder....

It just needs to be leaked once.

I guess the moral of the story is, 'never point a pen at an intruder'.