Thread: Warning shot for gun owners

VC, could you point me at the specific piece of NZ legislation defines that right pls ?

MassiveAttack - Self defense is possible without firearms. In fact I suspect that is you list self defense as a motivation for a NZ FAL, you will not get granted a license...

Originally Posted by ebf

VC, could you point me at the specific piece of NZ legislation defines that right pls ?

MassiveAttack - Self defense is possible without firearms. In fact I suspect that is you list self defense as a motivation for a NZ FAL, you will not get granted a license...

Im not up on legals ebf, Im from the school of common sense.

If a NZ citizen is legally deemed "fit and proper" what piece of legislation denies the right to hold/use legally arms ebf?

Hehe, common sense and the law are not necessarily good bedfellows

I'm talking about the constitutional law difference between a right and a privilege.

Rights are normally explicitly defined, like in the USA - the right to keep and bear arms in the 2nd amendment

My understanding is that NZ does not have an explicit written constitution, the bill of rights (as de la Rey pointed out) does not contain anything about firearm ownership rights, and the arms code specifically states that firearm ownership is a privilege, not a right.

Happy to be corrected or educated otherwise... And if there are any lawyers on here, feel free to chip in.

Im not a lawyer but Im pretty sure if you are a "fit and proper person" it is your right.
If not we should all storm parliament which would make us all unfit and not proper

in .nz law you are meant to attempt to leave the scene rather than retaliate. self defense with a firearm isn't a wise way.of thinking. that and the fact if it's locked away properly you won't be able to get at it in time. my hands and brain have done all I've needed in the past and you don't need to find the keys to get them.out

It's not a right whatsoever, we all have all been assessed for our worthiness to hold a FAL. The moment you play up, that privilige is taken from you.

The moment we all stuff up, the privilege is taken from all of us

Originally Posted by horihunter

in .nz law you are meant to attempt to leave the scene rather than retaliate. self defense with a firearm isn't a wise way.of thinking. that and the fact if it's locked away properly you won't be able to get at it in time. my hands and brain have done all I've needed in the past and you don't need to find the keys to get them.out

Just to clarify I am NOT talking about self defence...I am talking about a fit and proper person being able to own and use firearms.

And Iv always thought the class system to be a crock of shit. Im fit and proper to own/store and use something capable of killing @ 2km+ but on the same license Im not fit and proper to own/store/use a 22lr pistol.

Either your fit and proper or not right?

I agree VC

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

It is the RIGHT of every FIT AND PROPER Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Just to clarify I am NOT talking about self defence...I am talking about a fit and proper person being able to own and use firearms.

And Iv always thought the class system to be a crock of shit. Im fit and proper to own/store and use something capable of killing @ 2km+ but on the same license Im not fit and proper to own/store/use a 22lr pistol.

Either your fit and proper or not right?

Which is it? A right to firearm ownership or being "fit and proper"? They are two quite distinct and unrelated topics.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

If a NZ citizen is legally deemed "fit and proper" what piece of legislation denies the right to hold/use legally arms ebf?

There is no legislation denying them the "right". To put the whole rights thing into context, let's look at the USA where the right to bear arms is enshrined in their constitution (the 2nd amendment).

This effectively means that as soon as someone is born and has legal status as a living human being that, along with the right to an education, freedom of speech and so so, they also have the right to own a firearm. As long as they don't fall foul of the law at any stage, they are entitled to own a firearm simply because it is their legal right to do so.

There is no such law in New Zealand where citizens are automatically entitled to own a firearm and they to need to prove that they are a "fit and proper" person before being issued a licence. If you like, have a look at this website - particularly the section entitled "Gun Regulation" and specifically the sub-section "Right to possess firearms".

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/new-zealand

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

It is the RIGHT of every FIT AND PROPER Kiwi to hold and use firearms within the law.

Spotlighting public camping grounds probably rules out the fit and proper bit

Yeah i get you mean that it IS in the law. On the moral level though i know of so many who aren't fit to hold a crayon let alone a rifle. I respect those who are proficient, safe and considerate with their firearm ownership/usage. Since nobody is inherently born with these traits i don't regard ownership as a 'right'. It's a commitment IMO

As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit
If you are fit and proper it is your right.
Just like a drivers license........At least that has an eye test. and a practical.and a probation period.

So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit
If you are fit and proper it is your right.
Just like a drivers license........At least that has an eye test. and a practical.and a probation period.

So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?

I think I've summed up what I'm saying pretty well already. Rights are a legal guarantee. There is a legal guarantee that one can own a firearm in the USA. There is no such legal guarantee in NZ or I'd wager anywhere else in the world for that matter.

Originally Posted by Dead is better

Yeah i get you mean that it IS in the law. On the moral level though i know of so many who aren't fit to hold a crayon let alone a rifle. I respect those who are proficient, safe and considerate with their firearm ownership/usage. Since nobody is inherently born with these traits i don't regard ownership as a 'right'. It's a commitment IMO

Good post

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

As far as im aware US citizens must have a permit

Nope, maybe you are thinking about concealed cary permit for handguns ?

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

So you are saying that in America it is a 3 year olds constitutional right to own and use unsupervised a machine gun?

No they don't, there is a lower age limit for ownership. Determined by state legislation, so in Texas a 3 year old may well have that right

Originally Posted by De la Rey

This effectively means that as soon as someone is born and has legal status as a living human being that, along with the right to an education, freedom of speech and so so, they also have the right to own a firearm. As long as they don't fall foul of the law at any stage, they are entitled to own a firearm simply because it is their legal right to do so.

The difference in NZ being you have to apply for a licence once 16 or over.