Thread: Who is responsible/accountable??

I'm "Old Skool" was drilled into me, always show anyone with you your chamber is empty and weapon unloaded when you stop using the firearm.

I beleive it's the responsibility of the driver for everything in the vehicle.

Makes me wonder how that would play if the driver doesn't have a FAL.

Originally Posted by NotMyRealName

I beleive it's the responsibility of the DRIVER for everything in the vehicle.

Makes me wonder how that would play if the driver doesn't have a FAL.

I think the answer is in your statement? As under your logic there shouldnt be a gun in the car as he has no license, nor aware of the rules hence it is responsibility of the FAL in my view

Hamish

Sent from my SM-S911B using Tapatalk

You make alot of sense. I think I remember reading somewhere that if your controlling a car you are responsible for everything in the car and the car itself. Hence why if it's not registered or warranted the driver gets the ticket, not the registered owner.

I could be wrong

Originally Posted by NotMyRealName

You make alot of sense. I think I remember reading somewhere that if your controlling a car you are responsible for everything in the car and the car itself. Hence why if it's not registered or warranted the driver gets the ticket, not the registered owner.

I could be wrong

Yeah if i was driving your car in that state then yes i am responsible as the licensed owner....guns are a lil different i think

Hamish

Sent from my SM-S911B using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by NotMyRealName

You make alot of sense. I think I remember reading somewhere that if your controlling a car you are responsible for everything in the car and the car itself. Hence why if it's not registered or warranted the driver gets the ticket, not the registered owner.

I could be wrong

In certain circumstances you are liable as the driver, and in other cases not. Seatbelts over the age of whatever it's on you not the driver, under the age you as driver are responsible for the kids being restrained. Commercial vehicle, if carrying DG's you can be driving without a DG endorsement if the guy sitting next to you has one and the correct licence. There's a few other things like that, so I'd say if you are driving a car without a firearms licence but the passenger is licenced then you aren't committing any Arms Act offences. The firearms licence holder would be liable for any transgressions in the state and security of the firearms though.

Originally Posted by NotMyRealName

You make alot of sense. I think I remember reading somewhere that if your controlling a car you are responsible for everything in the car and the car itself. Hence why if it's not registered or warranted the driver gets the ticket, not the registered owner.

I could be wrong

Um, if the car isn't registered or warranted the driver would def. be getting the invoice. If it's not registered, there isn't a 'registered owner'...

A - what's the chance of getting pulled over.
B why not just secure it properly?
C fk my m8 , not my gun your honor!

The precedence of driver responsibility aligns with all other legislation in the land transport act, but with typically vague wording in the Arms Act, it leaves room for interpretation, and this is how I would interpret the situation if I was Mr Plod, or Judge Judy;
If both occupants are FAL holders, it is surely the responsibility of the driver to ensure the firearms in his/her vehicle are being transported in accordance with the law. I don't see a scenario in which the driver could plead ignorance to incorrect transportation and lay culpability on the passenger.
If the driver is not a FAL holder, I'm sure a good prosecution lawyer could argue that correct transportation protocols are still under the drivers responsibility as they knowingly accepted to transport them, even if the firearms are in the possession/supervision of the passenger with the FAL. Equally, a good lawyer for the defense of said driver could argue that the non licensed driver has no knowledge of the requirements and is likely to get away with any repercussions.

Originally Posted by turtleSO

I'm "Old Skool" was drilled into me, always show anyone with you your chamber is empty and weapon unloaded when you stop using the firearm.

As a responsible LAFO, I really do get pissed off when others in our fraternity (or maybe they're not) refer to firearms as WEAPONS.
FFS, when are you going to learn that the police, military, and para-military are the people who use weapons.
This fraternity uses firearms.

The original post quite clearly posed the hypothetical of two licenced chaps, with firearms in vehicle, being stopped for some reason. And then the question of who is responsible.
A number of responses suggest that the driver, or the licence holder, or the owner, or variations of all three, are responsible.

This is what the Arms Regulations 1992 actually says:

19B Conditions relating to storage of firearms in vehicles during transportation
(1) Unless otherwise permitted by a member of the Police, if a firearms licence holder is transporting firearms or ammunition in a vehicle on a road or public access way,—
(a) firearms must be concealed from view from outside of the vehicle; and
(b) firearms must be made inoperable if readily possible by removing the bolt or another vital part (which should be kept on the licence holder’s person or stored out of sight separately from the firearms) or, if that is not possible (for example, because the firearm is a lever action or semiautomatic or single shot firearm), firearms must be fitted with a trigger lock or travel in a locked case or carry bag; and
(c) firearms must not be loaded with ammunition in the breech, barrel, chamber, or magazine; and
(d) ammunition must be concealed from view from outside of the vehicle; and
(e) ammunition must be stored separately from any firearms and be in a locked glovebox or similar storage area where practicable.

(2) Subclause (1) does not apply to a firearms licence holder if—
(a) the holder is using a vehicle on a farm and undertaking farm-related activities, or is actively engaged in legally authorised hunting or wild animal or animal pest control on farmland, public land, or land used for an agricultural, a horticultural, or a silviculture business on which they are permitted to use firearms; and
(b) the licence holder is in the vehicle with the firearms or in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle in which the firearms are located.
(3) Any firearms or ammunition may be left unattended in a vehicle during a break in a journey for up to 60 minutes if—
(a) the licence holder remains in the immediate area or vicinity of the vehicle; and
(b) the firearms or ammunition are secured and out of sight; and
(c) if possible, vital parts of firearms remain in the licence holder’s possession; and
(d) the vehicle is locked, the windows are closed, and the keys remain in the holder’s possession.

Pay particular attention to sub-clause (2) which says that sub-clause (1) DOES NOT APPLY --- if-

If those firearms remain within your immediate possession, lots of the "do this, do that" do not apply. The moment you are away from the immediate vicinity of your firearms for more than 60 minutes, or if they are in the bowels of an inter-island ferry, you are then obliged to comply with the required safe storage requirements.
If you want to remove the bolt, fit a trigger lock, etc., etc., go right ahead, but the Regulations only require such things in specific circumstances.

Responsibility rests with the licence holder.

Originally Posted by no1_49er

The original post quite clearly posed the hypothetical of two licenced chaps, with firearms in vehicle, being stopped for some reason. And then the question of who is responsible.
A number of responses suggest that the driver, or the licence holder, or the owner, or variations of all three, are responsible.

This is what the Arms Regulations 1992 actually says:

19B Conditions relating to storage of firearms in vehicles during transportation
(1) Unless otherwise permitted by a member of the Police, if a firearms licence holder is transporting firearms or ammunition in a vehicle on a road or public access way,—
(a) firearms must be concealed from view from outside of the vehicle; and
(b) firearms must be made inoperable if readily possible by removing the bolt or another vital part (which should be kept on the licence holder’s person or stored out of sight separately from the firearms) or, if that is not possible (for example, because the firearm is a lever action or semiautomatic or single shot firearm), firearms must be fitted with a trigger lock or travel in a locked case or carry bag; and
(c) firearms must not be loaded with ammunition in the breech, barrel, chamber, or magazine; and
(d) ammunition must be concealed from view from outside of the vehicle; and
(e) ammunition must be stored separately from any firearms and be in a locked glovebox or similar storage area where practicable.

(2) Subclause (1) does not apply to a firearms licence holder if—
(a) the holder is using a vehicle on a farm and undertaking farm-related activities, or is actively engaged in legally authorised hunting or wild animal or animal pest control on farmland, public land, or land used for an agricultural, a horticultural, or a silviculture business on which they are permitted to use firearms; and
(b) the licence holder is in the vehicle with the firearms or in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle in which the firearms are located.
(3) Any firearms or ammunition may be left unattended in a vehicle during a break in a journey for up to 60 minutes if—
(a) the licence holder remains in the immediate area or vicinity of the vehicle; and
(b) the firearms or ammunition are secured and out of sight; and
(c) if possible, vital parts of firearms remain in the licence holder’s possession; and
(d) the vehicle is locked, the windows are closed, and the keys remain in the holder’s possession.

Pay particular attention to sub-clause (2) which says that sub-clause (1) DOES NOT APPLY --- if-

If those firearms remain within your immediate possession, lots of the "do this, do that" do not apply. The moment you are away from the immediate vicinity of your firearms for more than 60 minutes, or if they are in the bowels of an inter-island ferry, you are then obliged to comply with the required safe storage requirements.
If you want to remove the bolt, fit a trigger lock, etc., etc., go right ahead, but the Regulations only require such things in specific circumstances.

Responsibility rests with the licence holder.

Easy to comprehend, no tricky grey jargon speak or ambiguous text, yet people still have selective comprehension and make up their own shit for the rest.

btw Myself and my son have been stopped about a year ago at a random early morning drink/drive check point (stopping all traffic) on our way to the range. The police did the breath/warrant/rego checks and asked all friendly like when done where we off to and I replied a club meet at the shooting range. A very quick glance thru back windows (Isuzu) and the officer said..."have a nice day guys" then off we went. The process was so quick, the officers wanted me to open my mouth first only to answer their question into breath analyser before I even had a chance to say anything else. All the shooting stuff was well hidden from sight under random empty shopping bags and the dog's cleaning bath towels that live in the Isuzu. Important to be friendly and open as you have no good reason to be otherwise, but to only invite trouble for yourself.

1b is a good bit to remember...the bolt action rifle with bolt out and say in your belt bag with ammunition in glovebox........does this say/state/imply that said bolt action rifle DOESNT HAVE to be in a big bulky pain in the arse locked case????
I really really really hope so.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

1b is a good bit to remember...the bolt action rifle with bolt out and say in your belt bag with ammunition in glovebox........does this say/state/imply that said bolt action rifle DOESNT HAVE to be in a big bulky pain in the arse locked case????
I really really really hope so.

I would suggest that you re-read the WHOLE of 19B.
Unless you are not absolved of the requirements as stated in 19B(2), then 19B(1) applies, i.e. (a) -'Concealed from view'. There is not a specific requirement to lock it in a big-arsed case (unless you want to).

There are a lot of ands and ifs. Read it all. Then read it again, slowly. Get your head around what is actually required by the Regulation.

I don't own a case for mine but since one is a single shot I always use a trigger lock on both and they travel out of sight as the law requires.