Thread: Wtf

The variation of 2-3% on a sample size of close to half might have more statistical integrity than the number of "wet bus tickets" that you know about in comparison to the total number of cases processed by the justice system......

Originally Posted by Sidney

The variation of 2-3% on a sample size of close to half might have more statistical integrity than the number of "wet bus tickets" that you know about in comparison to the total number of cases processed by the justice system......

A sample size of close to half? That means almost 1/2 of one opinion (I wont mention the old 'If you have half a mind to become a politician you are over qualified')! There are more on here that mentioned the 'wet bus ticket' than a half.

I do understand your point though. I could go and find a few but I wont; I need to rattle my daggs and get out for what I do in the community.

i could have phrased that more clearly...

I'm over this thread it is getting Dummer and Dummer signing off this thread

Originally Posted by Dundee

I'm over this thread it is getting Dummer and Dummer signing off this thread

So many Bush Lawyers out there.

sidney -military detention centres old chap.bloody sight tougher than any civilian prison(as is the military law system).ya know whats funny -bugger all soldiers ever go back for secondsold boy,in fact a lot of one time transgressors were pretty unanimous"never a fucking gain"!seems a short sharp jolt can =lesson learned.
in fact im a great fan of ye old military orderly room-double marched in-details read criime read ,guilty -punishment awarded ,not guilty -double the punishment cause youre eyes are too close together ,and your average baggie couldnt lie straight in bed.doubled out of orderly room-straight into your sentence.10mins maxand you sure as hell didnt forget every little detail.reckon she'd go down a treat in the district court.charge em in batches and open a TAB book on sentences-all you ex RF buggers would make great bookies

yeah borstals ran on similar lines, but had lousy re-offending rates

Originally Posted by Sidney

yeah borstals ran on similar lines, but had lousy re-offending rates

Worked pretty well for a couple of my cousins who lost their fathers at a young age and ran off the rails in their teens. But like the rest of us, some will respond well to one thing, others to something else. And then there are others that will just never respond to anything.

With the youth work I do, and have done for 25 years now, we get a lot of single parent kids coming along that are quickly heading in the wrong direction. They push boundaries, get disruptive, destructive, obnoxious, ... but we never give up on them. Often it will take 6-7 years but with persistence, insistence, and leadership they do respond. The difficulty is that fewer and fewer are willing to put in the effort nowadays, but having seen the difference it makes to the lives of those we deal with the only way out for me will be feet first in a pine box.

Originally Posted by Scouser

If you agree (im still not sure) that the present system is not working, and in your view rehabilitation is the way forward and not primitive emotive responce...what would YOU change to get NZ out of its current malaise, if you had the power to change the law?

@Sidney still waiting mate, you seem to be good at saying no to all suggestions/opinions, so what would you do?

Pretty sure the most obvious one that I have already suggested is a reduction in imprisonment rates...

For every 100K pa prisoner, that could fund a case manager who could handle 20-50 cases pa, for home based detention/programs involving direct accountability and restitution programs for suitable cases, which at least would provide a possibility of less lifestyle based training that results from incarceration..... not just home D without obligation....

Reduction in alcohol availability for under 20's... a large percentage of crime is alcohol fueled...

Support based case managers for every family with dependants for those we imprison. Co-ordination with organisations like Pillars to achieve this... Leaving those families with the state and the authorities as enemies simply breeds another generation of criminals.

I am not sure that you have offered any options at all.... tougher sentencing isn't an option.... its an admission of failure.. it only addresses prevention of crime for that offender. That approach multiplies the problem in the long term.

There is plenty of information about options available and plenty of work that has been done to make positive steps to addressing the issue... the ministry of justice has some previously focused Drivers Of Crime approaches that seem to have stalled... Rethinking Crime and Punishment - Rethinking Crime and Punishment has plenty of information..

Kotutu is obviously working in programs designed to address these issues. So is Gadget by the sounds of it.

“By 30 years of age a huge percentage of offenders will stop offending. 40% of prisoners serve terms of less than 6 months; 85% will be out in under 2 years; 5-7% should never come out, will never change – the public thinks this figure is more like 40%.” - Kim Workman

If this is the reality, we would be making efforts to keep offenders out of prison - they will grow out of offending if we don't keep putting them back into the training institutions.

There is plenty of information out there...

Originally Posted by Sidney

Pretty sure the most obvious one that I have already suggested is a reduction in imprisonment rates...

For every 100K pa prisoner, that could fund a case manager who could handle 20-50 cases pa, for home based detention/programs involving direct accountability and restitution programs for suitable cases, which at least would provide a possibility of less lifestyle based training that results from incarceration..... not just home D without obligation....

Reduction in alcohol availability for under 20's... a large percentage of crime is alcohol fueled...

Support based case managers for every family with dependants for those we imprison. Co-ordination with organisations like Pillars to achieve this... Leaving those families with the state and the authorities as enemies simply breeds another generation of criminals.

I am not sure that you have offered any options at all.... tougher sentencing isn't an option.... its an admission of failure.. it only addresses prevention of crime for that offender. That approach multiplies the problem in the long term.

There is plenty of information about options available and plenty of work that has been done to make positive steps to addressing the issue... the ministry of justice has some previously focused Drivers Of Crime approaches that seem to have stalled... Rethinking Crime and Punishment - Rethinking Crime and Punishment has plenty of information..

Kotutu is obviously working in programs designed to address these issues. So is Gadget by the sounds of it.



If this is the reality, we would be making efforts to keep offenders out of prison - they will grow out of offending if we don't keep putting them back into the training institutions.

There is plenty of information out there...

I agree totally with the vast majority of that.

My only issues are minor:

Prison is not the only training ground. There is more training, particularly hands on practical, available outside of prison.

There is still room for increases sentences for SOME recidivists. Like the guy that was constantly getting caught drunk driving, killed people on a couple of occasions and was still doing the same thing. I believe he had been on numerous retraining schemes. For everyone's safety the likes of this case should be put away for a very long time.

And of course I'd add the one I've been proposing all along, sort out the economy so that there is no need for so many to turn to crime for survival. "Idle hands, ...". If you look at the places with lower crime rates it tends to be those with lower unemployment rates and often greater state input, such as the Scandinavian countries.

Thanks for that reply Sidney, as you say the information is out there if you try, i obviously dont.....as you have already probably gathered im from the oldskool 'hang em high' philosophy......yeah, you know....the good old days.....

I know its only high 'media attention' cases, but when my friends and i talk about retribution from certain incidents, we are mainly all of the same opinion, we are not 'middle class whites' blaming it all on the welfare classes!!!

Ive been on the bottom rung of the class ladder to many times to think of myself otherwise, 2 years on the dole (welfare) under the bitch thatcher (plenty of coal where she is now) taught me that!

Its just that we get totally pissed off to see regular offenders given an easy ride, im not talking about the one off people who make an mistake (Dummer) you know who im talking about, the ones who have taken crime up as a lifestyle!

We (society) are paying for them whether they are inside or not, at least when they are inside they cannot harm us anymore!!!

good luck in your endeavours and career, i can tell from your posts your are very passionate about this subject, thanks for sharing!!!!

I believe there are not there aren't enough consequences for the youths, the current system with Family Group Conferences work for 80% of the youth offenders but the recidivist offenders just laugh at the whole process and continue to offend, then get taken by CYFs but then run away and continue to offend. A lot of these kids don't come from broken homes either, it's not always the parents doing.

I'd like to see some kind of reparation law bought in where any person who causes damages must pay for them at a minimum. Eg, I know a guy that burnt out a $50k vehicle and only got 100hrs of community service! I think they should be paying the full amount whether it's insured or not. Another that I see all the time is people causing thousands of dollars in damage ripping copper piping and cylinders out of houses for a couple of hundred in scrap, do you think they're made responsible for all the damage they've done? Nope, it comes back on the owner or insurance company if they have one. I could go on and on and on with examples of damage done yet they're not held accountable for it.

A lot of the criminal youth and adults you cannot reason with, no amount of our new age punishments will turn them.

I think another good start would be making our prisons a lot less comfortable and make them more like a military prison to discourage people from going back.

A culture change is what is needed, we will never be like the Scandinavian countries. Most of the people I deal with don't want to work and have a sense of entitlement from the government and absolutely no care or respect for anybody else, they also have a below average IQ. How to change this? I don't know. It pisses me off going into their houses and they have big TVs and Sky TV, which most of them do, especially because I can't afford it.

I'm no expert in the matter but I don't believe that giving out longer sentences will do anything, but maybe changing the content of the sentence will. An end to the Police budget freeze would be a bloody good start to.

I agree Savage1, you guys are way under resourced at the sharp end. I'm all for making it easier for those that do fall back into line, but also come down heavy on those that don't. One thing that police HQ feared with the three strikes was some muppet thinking "I've got nothing to lose, if I get caught I might as well be dead." and going out in a hail of fire.

sidney -have you got any bloody idea whatsoever about the realities of case management -youre ratios are fucking laughable .i have communtiy based colleagues who case manage up to 20 persons at any time and frankly theyre run off their bloody feet! jesus wept- to renew a recent quip["allsmoke no hangi!. case management properly executed requires unlimited resources and minute attention to detail ,cause beleive me ,one small oversight and the whole lot willgo down the dunny .been there done that more than once ,and humble pie aint my fuckin meal of choice
number 2 sidney -if a bloody individual does not want to change ,nothing ,i repeat nothing will make em change ,despite all the optimists in this firiggin world holding hands and gently farting on em.
you can quote all the statistics hypotheses etc etc you like but im coming from butt ugly naked unadorned humanity at its lowest point and my own paddling in it for four decades.
gadget I bleive in -i know him ,Ive seen him in action ,and when it comes to good old fashioned plain garden commonsense he has it in spades,unlike a lot who profess to be expert in this subject(that incidentally is not a crack at you OK>