Thread: Yet another shooting incident in the states

Originally Posted by Beavis

Yea pistols actually suck shit at stopping.

No Beavis.

IF you have a large caliber pistol, and IF you have the correct ammunition, and IF you manage to hit someone on the pelvic triangle or enough of the brain to cause major damage, then pistols are really good at "stopping". The point is that it is a whole bunch of IFs...

That is the reason most police forces around the world are quite happy to use tasers. You can hit someone ANYWHERE on their body, and the effect is pretty much instantaneous. And best of all, everyone gets to life another day...

And knives are fantastic offensive weapons (not defensive). A knife requires you to be in physical contact or close proximity with the attacker. That is a very bad idea to start off with

Originally Posted by Savage1

Mace is the best I can think of for civilian as it gives opportunity for escape and can be used at a very low level, TASER you still need to deal with them once the 5 seconds is up and is easy to miss, your an idiot if you pull a knife to protect yourself but at least there is minimal collateral damage unlike a firearm.

You call those arguments emotive shit because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them so.

Training is great but most people have no idea how they will act when they get an adrenaline dump, so unless they have quality training a lot or are in high stress situations often then it will be for nothing.

Do you do martial arts training on a weekly basis so you can protect yourself? If not then you obviously can't be too worried.

Lol so your answer to taking down an active shooter would be to run up with your can of spray? Sodomize that idea, I'd rather take my chances with a Glock 19 any day. And if I could carry I would train the fuck out of myself, by that I mean attend defensive courses, if they were available. I use to do martial arts but found it a waste of time - as soon as you introduce speed and aggression into the attack, all the fancy stuff you learn goes out the window. Knives are outstanding defensive weapons, especially when used in conjunction with a distraction like a torch, only problem is their use would look real bad in court, you generally have to inflict multiple stab wounds to incapacitate, I can't see a jury being to impressed if you stab an attacker 20 odd times with your Spyderco. Non - lethal weapons are a nice idea, but if given the option, I would rather prepare for the worst denominators - groups of attackers, psycho's, active shooters and people high on meth and bath salts. A firearm and the training to use it gives the defender a much better chance in that regard.

Originally Posted by Beavis

Lol so your answer to taking down an active shooter would be to run up with your can of spray? Sodomize that idea, I'd rather take my chances with a Glock 19 any day. And if I could carry I would train the fuck out of myself, by that I mean attend defensive courses, if they were available. I use to do martial arts but found it a waste of time - as soon as you introduce speed and aggression into the attack, all the fancy stuff you learn goes out the window. Knives are outstanding defensive weapons, especially when used in conjunction with a distraction like a torch, only problem is their use would look real bad in court, you generally have to inflict multiple stab wounds to incapacitate, I can't see a jury being to impressed if you stab an attacker 20 odd times with your Spyderco. Non - lethal weapons are a nice idea, but if given the option, I would rather prepare for the worst denominators - groups of attackers, psycho's, active shooters and people high on meth and bath salts. A firearm and the training to use it gives the defender a much better chance in that regard.

Martial arts are only effective if you train something that you test regularly at full speed against a resisting opponent - full contact competition. Boxing, muay thai, BJJ, judo, MMA, are good. Most of the rest are Bruce Lee LARPing. Krav Maga etc is Jason Bourne LARPing.

Mostly unarmed stuff isn't immediately incapacitating except things like chokes which mostly require you to be in a vulnerable position to knives, other people, etc. Anything unarmed on your part is worthless if the other guy has a weapon.

Knifes are terrible. No range, not incapacitating.

Originally Posted by Tussock

Two women get left to either find out for themselves if intruders are still in their house, or just leave and give the burglers all the time they need to clean out the family home. Those were the two options they were given.

So as long as your home gets invaded and no one turns up, why should anyone buy this "leave it to the professionals" nonsense.

You can't have it both ways. You can't ask people not to defend themselves when their police force leaves a lot to be desired. Burglers get no attention and burglers become home invaders. Then it's too late.

Also, your average citizen would struggle to be worse with a fire arm than a police officer. We have all seen the footage of a half dozen cops trying (and failing) to shoot a dog that's right in front of them. Whatever they are taught must be barely a hair better than holding it back to front.

It's not about people actually shooting anyone. It's about prevention. It's what Cam said. People would think twice about attacking that slight little elderly person or that woman if they thought they were armed. Current measures to prevent crime don't seem to be achieving much. I don't think it's an unreasonable proposition.

Instead of just taking guns off law abiding citizens and not even inconveniencing criminals, give more guns to law abiding citizens. Numerous examples of attempted massacres in concealed carry areas where the people just shot the wood be massacrer (I think that's a real word).

As per the logic of taking them away, do the potential benefits not outweighs the inconvenience to a few?

You can't go and shoot people because they are in your house, it would be murder. Yes you should wait for the Police.

All of the Police officers I have seen are quite capable with firearms, more than enough for our average situation.

The criminals are far more prepared to use force against the lady than the lady will against them, putting concealable pistols into the law abiding publics hand inevitably leads them to being in the criminals hands as well and they are far more prepared to use them. We don't have the gun culture of the USA so few people would carry even if available.

The inevitable repercussions out weigh the possible benefits.

If you want CCW, my suggestion is you go live in the USA or in South Africa for a couple of years. See how you like it...

The incidence of violent crime here is so low that it is almost a non-issue

I really like the fact that the average front-line police officer here does not walk around with a pistol. Having one available in the boot of the car is great, but pistols are not seen as the first (or only) option. Escalation works both ways, seriously, think about it calmly for a couple of minutes

And honestly, any talk of CCW or firearms for self-defense purposes in NZ is a complete pipe dream. Given the political climate here, you are delusional if you think the majority of the population will ever go for it.

Beavis, Taupo must be a lot scarier than Welly

I've got a killer headache so I'm going to leave this thread alone for tonight

Knife is a good defensive weapon?!?! You have no idea, martial arts would be far more effective than a knife, same with mace and ASP, knives are just stupid for defence.

You want to carry around a glock just in case you come across an active shooter or a person fried on meth who wants to kill you and you can't get away?! You need to wake up. You want to prepare for the worst situations with a tool that is no good for anything else.

I think you just want to carry a gun because it'll make you feel good, not because you feel you will need it.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Knife is a good defensive weapon?!?! You have no idea, martial arts would be far more effective than a knife, same with mace and ASP, knives are just stupid for defence.

You want to carry around a glock just in case you come across an active shooter or a person fried on meth who wants to kill you and you can't get away?! You need to wake up. You want to prepare for the worst situations with a tool that is no good for anything else.

I think you just want to carry a gun because it'll make you feel good, not because you feel you will need it.

Again, your assuming shit and letting emotion get in the way. Is reading comprehension not compulsory in schools these days?

I'll just leave this here

You've said some stupid things in the last few post so I will make some assumptions, I will also make the assumption that you have very little, if any, experience in confrontational and dangerous situations in the real world but deep down you would love the opportunity to be in such a situation all tooled up. A lot of people get a rush from it.

Originally Posted by Savage1

You've said some stupid things in the last few post so I will make some assumptions, I will also make the assumption that you have very little, if any, experience in confrontational and dangerous situations in the real world but deep down you would love the opportunity to be in such a situation all tooled up. A lot of people get a rush from it.

Sure thing bro

Originally Posted by Tussock

Everyone has that attitude. Everyone thinks they are super man and everyone else knows nothing. You just dismissed a large number of potentially useful items, and not dismissing those items is a fundamental of self defense training. Iv done self defense classes with heaps of cops, soldiers, nurses. Not blowhards, just nice genuine professionals, and they never displayed an attitude like yours. They were open to suggestions and would not have reacted that way to Gimps suggestions. There are not many self defense items better than a knife, they are bloody hard if not impossible to get off someone, and its very hard and dangerous to grab hold of someone with a knife. Cant grab hold of them, cant keep them there, can't do anything to them. Basic stuff.

You say that everyone who wants something wants it for the power and the desire to walk round all tooled up, and that people get a rush from it. Equally true of the police is it not? You think our police is free of people who get a rush from the power of the position? I would suggest there would be no "civilians" left who get a rush from the power. They are all already in the police force. Our cops are getting more guns while getting very vocal about wanting the public to have less. Could this not be viewed as the exact same thing? A desire to have all the power?

Its the exact same logic your using.

First of all, I do self defence classes and I'm probably one of the 'most open to new ideas' kind of person you would ever meet. Through what experience I have, in my opinion suggesting a knife for self defence is stupid. I was referring to Beavis' not Gimp's suggestions. Pulling a knife is like pulling a gun but less effective and far more dangerous to the defender. However a knife is a great offensive weapon in certain situations.

To me there are much better options than a pistol in NZ for defence in public, pistols and knives can only be used in a life/death situations, while sober, which are extremely rare in NZ.

The Police need the tools to do their job, if you were going to start responding to every armed incident or violent situation in your district then I would say you would need them to. Every person I've met that wanted to CCW had never been in a situation where one could be used nor were ever likely to and when pressed about it, it just come down to them 'wanting' to carry because it would make them feel better. They also dismissed the idea of carrying mace instantly which spoke volumes to me.

I'm sure a lot of Police Officers do get a rush going to armed incidents tooled up, I never said otherwise, they are only human like us.

I don't remember the Police saying they wanted the public to have less guns, I remember them wanting people to have an endorsement for certain types but not saying you can't have them.

I can understand CCW in relations to pistols in the US but not here in NZ. I haven't made up my mind about others such as mace and taser.

Tussock

Knives really are not a good option for self defence, see post 67

The police are not armed because they "like power" They deal with all the scumbags and lowlife wankers on your and my behalf...

Originally Posted by Tussock

Your really going to suggest that a knife is a bad defensive weapon because it requires you to be in contact with your attacker?

Yes, absolutely

Originally Posted by Tussock

If they are not in contact with you, you have successfully defended yourself. Run away now.

Running away is the #1 self defence technique