Thread: Yet another shooting incident in the states

Pepperspray can blowback on the user, not totally effective, have to get it in the eyes (cool he's wearing glasses), fucked if it's windy, still requires training to be effective, etc

CCW ought to be allowed with required training courses etc


It's generally illegal to CCW in "places that serve alcohol" I believe is the wording in the US

"used against themselves" is pretty hilarious. I've never seen an actual example of that when it's a CCW gun


We'd need totally different social and economic conditions to end up "in a mess like America" ie a bunch of poor black people shooting each other over crack, massive inequality, etc

Mace is the best I can think of for civilian as it gives opportunity for escape and can be used at a very low level, TASER you still need to deal with them once the 5 seconds is up and is easy to miss, your an idiot if you pull a knife to protect yourself but at least there is minimal collateral damage unlike a firearm.

You call those arguments emotive shit because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them so.

Training is great but most people have no idea how they will act when they get an adrenaline dump, so unless they have quality training a lot or are in high stress situations often then it will be for nothing.

Do you do martial arts training on a weekly basis so you can protect yourself? If not then you obviously can't be too worried.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Do you do martial arts training on a weekly basis so you can protect yourself? If not then you obviously can't be too worried.

I do it, but not to defend myself. I'm an amateur Muay Thai fighter and train BJJ as well. No fucking way would I want to rely on it to defend myself, too much chance of getting my head kicked in or stabbed etc.

The only effective method of self defence is something that
-immediately totally incapacitates a threat
-allows use from some amount of range

Originally Posted by Tussock

Two women get left to either find out for themselves if intruders are still in their house, or just leave and give the burglers all the time they need to clean out the family home. Those were the two options they were given.

So as long as your home gets invaded and no one turns up, why should anyone buy this "leave it to the professionals" nonsense.

You can't have it both ways. You can't ask people not to defend themselves when their police force leaves a lot to be desired. Burglers get no attention and burglers become home invaders. Then it's too late.

Also, your average citizen would struggle to be worse with a fire arm than a police officer. We have all seen the footage of a half dozen cops trying (and failing) to shoot a dog that's right in front of them. Whatever they are taught must be barely a hair better than holding it back to front.

It's not about people actually shooting anyone. It's about prevention. It's what Cam said. People would think twice about attacking that slight little elderly person or that woman if they thought they were armed. Current measures to prevent crime don't seem to be achieving much. I don't think it's an unreasonable proposition.

Instead of just taking guns off law abiding citizens and not even inconveniencing criminals, give more guns to law abiding citizens. Numerous examples of attempted massacres in concealed carry areas where the people just shot the wood be massacrer (I think that's a real word).

As per the logic of taking them away, do the potential benefits not outweighs the inconvenience to a few?

You can't go and shoot people because they are in your house, it would be murder. Yes you should wait for the Police.

All of the Police officers I have seen are quite capable with firearms, more than enough for our average situation.

The criminals are far more prepared to use force against the lady than the lady will against them, putting concealable pistols into the law abiding publics hand inevitably leads them to being in the criminals hands as well and they are far more prepared to use them. We don't have the gun culture of the USA so few people would carry even if available.

The inevitable repercussions out weigh the possible benefits.

Originally Posted by gimp

I do it, but not to defend myself. I'm an amateur Muay Thai fighter and train BJJ as well. No fucking way would I want to rely on it to defend myself, too much chance of getting my head kicked in or stabbed etc.

The only effective method of self defence is something that
-immediately totally incapacitates a threat
-allows use from some amount of range

Yes but you're talking deadly force, how often is deadly force needed by the average, sober citizen?

That's where TASERS are great because they incapacitate far quicker than a firearm but they are one shot and need to follow up quick.

If you want CCW, my suggestion is you go live in the USA or in South Africa for a couple of years. See how you like it...

The incidence of violent crime here is so low that it is almost a non-issue

I really like the fact that the average front-line police officer here does not walk around with a pistol. Having one available in the boot of the car is great, but pistols are not seen as the first (or only) option. Escalation works both ways, seriously, think about it calmly for a couple of minutes

And honestly, any talk of CCW or firearms for self-defense purposes in NZ is a complete pipe dream. Given the political climate here, you are delusional if you think the majority of the population will ever go for it.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Mace is the best I can think of for civilian as it gives opportunity for escape and can be used at a very low level, TASER you still need to deal with them once the 5 seconds is up and is easy to miss, your an idiot if you pull a knife to protect yourself but at least there is minimal collateral damage unlike a firearm.

You call those arguments emotive shit because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them so.

Training is great but most people have no idea how they will act when they get an adrenaline dump, so unless they have quality training a lot or are in high stress situations often then it will be for nothing.

Do you do martial arts training on a weekly basis so you can protect yourself? If not then you obviously can't be too worried.

Lol so your answer to taking down an active shooter would be to run up with your can of spray? Sodomize that idea, I'd rather take my chances with a Glock 19 any day. And if I could carry I would train the fuck out of myself, by that I mean attend defensive courses, if they were available. I use to do martial arts but found it a waste of time - as soon as you introduce speed and aggression into the attack, all the fancy stuff you learn goes out the window. Knives are outstanding defensive weapons, especially when used in conjunction with a distraction like a torch, only problem is their use would look real bad in court, you generally have to inflict multiple stab wounds to incapacitate, I can't see a jury being to impressed if you stab an attacker 20 odd times with your Spyderco. Non - lethal weapons are a nice idea, but if given the option, I would rather prepare for the worst denominators - groups of attackers, psycho's, active shooters and people high on meth and bath salts. A firearm and the training to use it gives the defender a much better chance in that regard.

Originally Posted by gimp

The only effective method of self defence is something that
-immediately totally incapacitates a threat
-allows use from some amount of range

Gimp, take it from someone with a bit of real world experience, ok ?

Pistols DO NOT "immediately totally incapacitate a threat". I don't know if you've ever seen a person being shot. The very rarely stop dead.

The average person (police or civilian) when faced with an imminent deadly attack, is so hyped on fear/adrenaline that they can barely shoot straight. Add to that the type of ammunition being used, the caliber, and the "chemical state" of the person being shot, it's a completely different picture.

Originally Posted by Beavis

Lol so your answer to taking down an active shooter would be to run up with your can of spray? Sodomize that idea, I'd rather take my chances with a Glock 19 any day. And if I could carry I would train the fuck out of myself, by that I mean attend defensive courses, if they were available. I use to do martial arts but found it a waste of time - as soon as you introduce speed and aggression into the attack, all the fancy stuff you learn goes out the window. Knives are outstanding defensive weapons, especially when used in conjunction with a distraction like a torch, only problem is their use would look real bad in court, you generally have to inflict multiple stab wounds to incapacitate, I can't see a jury being to impressed if you stab an attacker 20 odd times with your Spyderco. Non - lethal weapons are a nice idea, but if given the option, I would rather prepare for the worst denominators - groups of attackers, psycho's, active shooters and people high on meth and bath salts. A firearm and the training to use it gives the defender a much better chance in that regard.

Martial arts are only effective if you train something that you test regularly at full speed against a resisting opponent - full contact competition. Boxing, muay thai, BJJ, judo, MMA, are good. Most of the rest are Bruce Lee LARPing. Krav Maga etc is Jason Bourne LARPing.

Mostly unarmed stuff isn't immediately incapacitating except things like chokes which mostly require you to be in a vulnerable position to knives, other people, etc. Anything unarmed on your part is worthless if the other guy has a weapon.

Knifes are terrible. No range, not incapacitating.

Originally Posted by ebf

Gimp, take it from someone with a bit of real world experience, ok ?

Pistols DO NOT "immediately totally incapacitate a threat". I don't know if you've ever seen a person being shot. The very rarely stop dead.

The average person (police or civilian) when faced with an imminent deadly attack, is so hyped on fear/adrenaline that they can barely shoot straight. Add to that the type of ammunition being used, the caliber, and the "chemical state" of the person being shot, it's a completely different picture.

Of course, but more effectively so than anything else.

Beavis, Taupo must be a lot scarier than Welly

I've got a killer headache so I'm going to leave this thread alone for tonight

Originally Posted by ebf

Gimp, take it from someone with a bit of real world experience, ok ?

Pistols DO NOT "immediately totally incapacitate a threat". I don't know if you've ever seen a person being shot. The very rarely stop dead.

The average person (police or civilian) when faced with an imminent deadly attack, is so hyped on fear/adrenaline that they can barely shoot straight. Add to that the type of ammunition being used, the caliber, and the "chemical state" of the person being shot, it's a completely different picture.

Yea pistols actually suck shit at stopping. Can't really CCW a rifle though.

Knife is a good defensive weapon?!?! You have no idea, martial arts would be far more effective than a knife, same with mace and ASP, knives are just stupid for defence.

You want to carry around a glock just in case you come across an active shooter or a person fried on meth who wants to kill you and you can't get away?! You need to wake up. You want to prepare for the worst situations with a tool that is no good for anything else.

I think you just want to carry a gun because it'll make you feel good, not because you feel you will need it.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Knife is a good defensive weapon?!?! You have no idea, martial arts would be far more effective than a knife, same with mace and ASP, knives are just stupid for defence.

You want to carry around a glock just in case you come across an active shooter or a person fried on meth who wants to kill you and you can't get away?! You need to wake up. You want to prepare for the worst situations with a tool that is no good for anything else.

I think you just want to carry a gun because it'll make you feel good, not because you feel you will need it.

Again, your assuming shit and letting emotion get in the way. Is reading comprehension not compulsory in schools these days?