Thread: English & Spanish side by sides

Originally Posted by Chop3r

And first you have to make the cutter to do that flat top checkering as you cant buy them. There are ways around that though

I have seen more than one nice shotgun ruined by a so called 'restoration' job and one thing that really sticks out is when the original flat top checking has been redone with a Dembart checkering tool

Know your limits ! I think that fixes many things Shamus lol but have a go if the gun isnt worth your house . What file do you use to take out pits in a barrel ?

In fact not only which file do you use to take pitting out with but where do you buy a screw driver for the very fine screw openings the english cut for their guns .I have had not lucK even with a Brownells gunsmithing screw drivers-Nothing fine enough and wide enough ?????????

brownwells do a fine english gunmakiing tip set.order that. the one you have got is fine for rifles and american shotguns,but english and european shotguns have finer scew slots.its a lot of fun restoring old guns and it certainly enhances skill levels and appreciation for the craftsmen that handmade these guns, but also be respectful of the worn patina some of these guns have developed/earnt. do not destroy or bodge this away. if it is an honest gun just enjoy it. if has seen better days,ie needs bluing,restoration work then undertake it,but don't make those long gone tradesmen turn in their grave. save your practise for old wall hangers. also hot bluing is fine for the rest of your guns furniture,ie trigger guard ,top lever,screws escutchens etc. many older guns have been reblued ,refinished many times.in such cases the wood gets worn so that the metal becomes proud.you can reinlet the wood etc. or just leave it as is.i have an 1877 hammergun with a beautifully figured walnut stock,well shot but honest.so i have left it as is. i have shoot many trap loads through it even though it is BP only. always check chamber size ,many old guns are chambered for 2 and half. yes, it probably won't blow on you if you put in a 2and 3/4 shell,but it will certainly boot and it is very hard on the action which it will eventually destroy. never take the risk.

thanks good advice!

last night i purchased two Spanish made guns , both with the label Sabel. Gunmark in the UK back in the 70s I believe decided to make an English styled at a fraction of the cost of an actual English one and went to Spain to do so .
Very interesting bunch they used to build these guns and all but one are considered the Best Gun Makers in Spain and around the world"there are bar one being Gorsable .

Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA), Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, and Grulla Armas , these 5 names represent the best of the Spanish builders which I will alter to Basque builder as they are only called Spanish having been conquered for the first time in known history in the Franco Spanish revolution .

I happened to live there in the region for 3 season working on the coast in the surfing industry .Of these famous gun maker names Gunmark had three of them build guns for them .

Now I had seen a Sabel on trade me some time back and I did not know its worth and had never heard of it before but it stuck in my mind as it was a very attractive looking gun with some nice engraving for the price but sadly was a right hander .
On my searching for UK guns I encountered alot of them again and liked what I saw for the price point -not being a man of wealth one must be selective in ones purchases !
What really got me going though was starting to read the history of the gun and its makers . Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, three of the real biggies all made models and they all are guns of great value in that they are way less expensive for the English equal -so I purchased 2 , an Arrieta and a Garbi . Im afraid the images are not the best and one the images were not down loadable from the site but Ia will post once they arrive . I have pulled a little info from around other sites about these guns if anyone is interested in the history of this brand .The guns I have are Royale's

The Sabel range of sidelocks were made for Gunmark by Arrietta, Garbi and Gorosabel. I have an advert from Sporting Gun magazine (UK) December 1979 in front of me. The Black Sabel D/L with 27 inch barrels is shown as being made by Garbi while the Sabel 27 and Sabel 25 are shown as built by Arrietta (that's how it is spelt in 1979) and are quote "The most popular sidelocks in our middle price bracket."
Price for all three models in 1979 was GBP 570. Gough Thomas was very favourably impressed with the overall quality of the Sabel sidelocks. I have owned a Sabel 25 made by Arrietta which was marked Sabel 25 which was a very nice gun. In May whilst in England I bought a Gold Sabel, made by Garbi 27 inch barrels 1/4 and 1/2 choke easy opener modelled on the H&H Royal. In 1989 the Gold Sabel retailed (exc. tax) for GBP 3400 at which time an AYA model 1 sold in the UK for GBP 2500. Other models were the Imperial (Arrietta) Royal (Garbi) similar to the Gold but without the easy opener, Crown (Arrietta) and Silver Sabel (Gorosabel). By 1989 there was also a Gunmark Regale 27" which retailed for GBP 5400 I don't know who the maker was.

Another review of these gun


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Gunmark 12-Bore Royale

Mark Stone looks at a pre-owned game gun that’s a bit of a classic - the Gunmark Royale

If it’s a classic side-by-side you’re after along with a decent slice of shotgunning history at a price that won’t break the bank, head north to Bond & Bywater’s in Preston and buy yourself the second-hand Gunmark Royale currently adorning their racks for the princely sum of £1,200. Not only will you get yourself a truly elegant game gun but one with a distinctly interesting heritage (but phone first to make sure the gun is still there!)

Originally built back in 1975, the Gunmark Royales were a range of Spanish built shotguns manufactured as the name would suggest on behalf of Gunmark – a company now better known as GMK. These shotguns were built to a very specific high quality English style and based on the Anson & Deeley sidelock action. Nothing especially unusual or new in this arrangement; numerous companies apply their name to a range of shotguns or rifles, the end result usually a high quality gun that can be offered at a slightly reduced cost given that its not theoretically a prestige name.

Produced by two well known manufacturers, the name Royale was chosen to differentiate between their shotguns and the Royal as offered by one of London’s premier gunmakers, it was considered that the addition of the letter ‘e’ sufficient to ensure potential customers could determine the difference. Another major factor was that the original Royales retailed out for around the £1,000 mark whilst you could easily add at least another nought for the similarly named London best.

Arrieta and Garbi

However, history as we known doesn’t always run smoothly and without going into great detail, the time eventually came when the ‘e’ was insufficient and the Gunmark Royale ceased production… albeit in name only. The good news is that occasionally a single or a matched pair of these guns hits the market just as this 12-bore did a few weeks ago.

More or less identical in looks, it was both the Arrieta and Garbi companies who produced these sideplate shotguns originally, with colour case hardened actions and both with engraving designed by the Giovanelli Studio who produced the plates. Although the actions eventually changed from case hardened to the more familiar brightwork, the game scenes continued, the gun you see here with flighting ducks on the left sideplate of the action, woodcock on the right and partridges on the base.

In most respects the actual manufacturer of each Gunmark Royale is relatively immaterial, given that these shotguns were built to a predetermined pattern. However, if you favour one over the other, all you need to do is take a quick look at the barrel flats. If the letters AR precede the serial number it’s an Arrieta, GA if its one of Garbi’s, as per the Royale you see here.
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Starting from the small brass bead that sits atop the ½ and ¼ chokes muzzles, the 28” barrels are well blued and in virtually new condition, the words Gunmark Royale in gold discreetly set into the concaved rib just forward of the external chamber and forcing cone taper. Apart from the heavy scroll engraved fences and game scenes, the sideplates, action floor, face and black top lever are once again as new, no hint of heavy usage or that the removable strikers have actually been extracted.

The well figured woodwork is undamaged, the semi-oiled finish still in excellent condition as is the chequering on the forend, grip and heel of the stock. Equally the small escutcheon still awaits the initials of its next owner, the previous holder electing not to personalise this particular 12-bore.

In the field

Anyone whose sport takes them after driven or walked-up game will immediately feel a familiarity with the Royale. Fast handling combined with the pointability that all side-by-sides of this ilk embody. A comfortably chequered straight stock and forend allow the user to switch rapidly between targets, whilst sliding the hand quickly down the grip for the finger to acquire the second trigger.

Shot over two round of Sporting, the first noticeable aspect of the Royale was that although this shotgun is chambered for most 2¾” rounds, those such as the hard hitting Express Super Game certainly make their presence felt. Although the Royale more than handled these potent loads, eradicating some fast flying targets in the process, it was a change to the Express Paper Case Game cartridges that showed the Royale off to its best.

Combined with these more traditional game loads, the Royale was a genuine pleasure to shoot. The gun’s ability on sporting style clays gives an indication of its competence as a lightweight, all-round game gun, this shotgun’s true purpose in life. When you combine this aptitude with the gun’s traditional looks, the sidelock action, drop points, detailed engraving and feel, it comes as a surprise that the previous owner actually wanted to part company with it in the first place.

If any slight criticism could be commented on - and its more down to my fingers than anything else - its that when pulling the second or rear trigger, the recoil, although virtually absent from my shoulder with the Paper Case Game loads, still forced the first or forward trigger back into my finger. In all probability this small inconvenience would be overcome by seeking out the services of a suitably qualified gunsmith or by wearing shooting gloves. Whatever the cure, this certainly wouldn’t deter me from buying the Royale.
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Going for new

If your wallet allows and you’re unable to source a second-hand example, its still more than possible to acquire an Arrieta that is more or less identical to the Royale, as GMK still import these beautifully built side-by-side shotguns. Called the Viscount and the Crown, the first is scroll engraved in traditional English style whilst the latter is a superbly proportioned round actioned gun.

Considered the equal of AyA’s much revered No.2, these Arrietas start at around £3,000 and are available in 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauge along with .410 with barrel lengths of 28” and 30”. Equally, for an additional 10% and a few months wait, either a single gun or a matched pair can be made to measure.

Conclusions

Timeless in looks and handling, this Garbi built Royale is available at a price that should see it quickly settled into its next owner’s gun cabinet. If not this particular example then any other Gunmark Royale should immediately become the focus of serious attention for any lover of classically proportioned shotguns, that will readily hold their own on the grouse moor of pheasant drive. All in at £1,200 this Royale’s a gift, given the gun’s quality and overall condition.

Originally Posted by lophortyx

brownwells do a fine english gunmakiing tip set.order that. the one you have got is fine for rifles and american shotguns,but english and european shotguns have finer scew slots.its a lot of fun restoring old guns and it certainly enhances skill levels and appreciation for the craftsmen that handmade these guns, but also be respectful of the worn patina some of these guns have developed/earnt. do not destroy or bodge this away. if it is an honest gun just enjoy it. if has seen better days,ie needs bluing,restoration work then undertake it,but don't make those long gone tradesmen turn in their grave. save your practise for old wall hangers. also hot bluing is fine for the rest of your guns furniture,ie trigger guard ,top lever,screws escutchens etc. many older guns have been reblued ,refinished many times.in such cases the wood gets worn so that the metal becomes proud.you can reinlet the wood etc. or just leave it as is.i have an 1877 hammergun with a beautifully figured walnut stock,well shot but honest.so i have left it as is. i have shoot many trap loads through it even though it is BP only. always check chamber size ,many old guns are chambered for 2 and half. yes, it probably won't blow on you if you put in a 2and 3/4 shell,but it will certainly boot and it is very hard on the action which it will eventually destroy. never take the risk.

ive looked on the brownells site but cannot fine anything that implies English set??can you post a link please

brownwells,gunsmithing tools, thin - bit magna tip, 080-120-000wb. its is complimentrary with the other set. good bit on the sable's. yes i remember the one on trademe.it looked a good gun but then he was asking a good price. i take it you have read terry weilands "spanish best", that certainly whets the appetitite for some spanish steel. if someone can lead me to the place where it shows you how to post photos i'll put up some of mine.

when you post a reply go to "go advanced" on the bottom right --from there go to "manage attachments-the that will take you to add files top left -clik select file and press open --keep pressing select for each new photo and upload-one Finnish press done and press submit reply

1904 William Evans restocked by Kevin Gaskill grade 5 webley scott action I believe

beautiful!! nice engraving and nice choice of wood to restock with, thanks for posting

Note the "From Purdy" Williams Evans got excommunicated from Purdy for dirty deeds I believe, so added this to get up them

seriously!!! funny

Had to restock it as I dropped it and splayed the original stock, which had been repaired once before

Had this one for about 25 years - not English or Spanish ...