Thread: Shotgun shooting like a solid round?

I bought an old hammer SxS shotgun at our gun show the other day.
I tested it out on a pattern board with light cowboy rounds and it went straight through cleanly like a solid slug, made a perfectly clean hole in the board.
This was at about 20 metres. I shoot further back at around 30 metres and I could hardly see any pellets on the board.
I dont know if its got an oddball choke on this thing, but its stamped on each barrel with the number 13, which im assuming is the choke size, but not sure what it actually equates to, or if this even has anything to do with the choke, but my other Belgian hammer gun is marked in millimeters for each choke.

The no 13 is the actual gauge of the barrel,measured in lead balls that diameter to the pound.
Stamped on the flat of the gun barrel by the proof house.
Just to be clear, are you saying it puts all its pellets in one hole at 20mtrs but at 30mtrs hardly a pellet on the board?

The 13 refers to the gauge round ball to be used in solids with that gun, it was std practice to use one gauge smaller to avoid embarrassment with tight chokes.i
Target products saloon cowboy action stuff gives a pattern width of about 3 foot at that range with a 16 inch cylinder bore.
What's the ammo any chance it could be a solid or are you getting confused by a hole made by the wad?

most cylinder barrels expand by ABOUT an inch per yard......your shot isnt steel thats rusted together perchance????

At 20 yards you should have about a 12 to 15 inch pattern. I suspect the single hole was made by the wad. Post a couple of photos of the gun and the muzzles.

Originally Posted by Skeetshooter

The no 13 is the actual gauge of the barrel,measured in lead balls that diameter to the pound.
Stamped on the flat of the gun barrel by the proof house.
Just to be clear, are you saying it puts all its pellets in one hole at 20mtrs but at 30mtrs hardly a pellet on the board?

OK, i wasnt sure how it was marked on these older guns.
Yes, I fired it at a corflute sign at various distances, it made a perfectly clean hole, typically the wads spin round and are sideways by the time they hit anything. A clean hole seems a bit surprising I thought.
I compared to shooting point blank and the same results with the hole was the same. I will have to go and get some photos of the target when I get a chance, I dont have it on hand.
Somewhere between 20-30M I appear to be getting some pellets make holes on the board, but it wasnt many.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The 13 refers to the gauge round ball to be used in solids with that gun, it was std practice to use one gauge smaller to avoid embarrassment with tight chokes.i
Target products saloon cowboy action stuff gives a pattern width of about 3 foot at that range with a 16 inch cylinder bore.
What's the ammo any chance it could be a solid or are you getting confused by a hole made by the wad?

It was just falcon cowboy ammo I had on hand that i tested it with. Would a wad make a clean hole in corflute plastic? I wouldnt have thought so.
Now I also shot a piece of a log at the same range to compare, and it blew a clean chunk out of the wood, so I know the pellets are very tight at that range.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

most cylinder barrels expand by ABOUT an inch per yard......your shot isnt steel thats rusted together perchance????

Definitely lead shot in these cowboy rounds. I suspect this gun may have cylinder barrels on it.

Originally Posted by gundoc

At 20 yards you should have about a 12 to 15 inch pattern. I suspect the single hole was made by the wad. Post a couple of photos of the gun and the muzzles.

I will grab some photos tonight and post them.
Now comparing the shots to my old belgian gun that has a very tight choke, there is a clear difference with about a couple feet spread at 30 meters.
I used the same cowboy ammo in both guns.

I HAVE only ever once before heard of a shotgun doing ball of shot at normal ranges before....early PMC steel and a maverick pump from memory.....tight choke AND SLOW load is the similarity but shot spreads,fullstop...it has to do so... if it hasnt it is somehow stuck inside the wad....even granddad melting candle wax into shot cup to hold shot together for longer didnt manage to turn it into a solid... this one really has interest peaked..look forward to the photos.

Originally Posted by muzza

Does your gun have steel barrels or damascus twist barrels ? Thats pretty important to know when shooting modern ammo.

They are Damascus twist barrels. Do these make the wad spin or something?
Ive only put cowboy ammo through it because this thing is not nitro proofed and has a bit of a sloppy action, so dont want to put anything too heavy through it, the barrels look overall OK however.
I did notice an unusual "pinging" kind of sound when I shoot it. Dont know if this is typical of Damascus barrels.

That old girl would have sold for about 5£ when new, if it were me I'd be hanging it on the wall

Any photos of the target

Originally Posted by muzza

I would strongly advise against shooting any - and I mean ANY - modern or nitro ammo out of a damascus twist barrel. One day it is going to blow the barrel apart. Might not be today , might not be tomorrow - but it will blow the barrel apart and someone will get hurt.

Turn it into a wall hanger and save yourself the grief that is surely coming your way.

this

blackpowder handloads at most specially made for that gun and definitly have a gunsmith look it over

even my old eyes can see those muzzles are no longer still round...... must be rather a hard life and soft barrel steel.... yip that dimascis so only VERY limited,very light loads...... wallhanger isnt such a silly idea.

also...look at muzzle end photo..the rib is coming adrift from barrel 4;00 from bead...and there is tiny cavity showing also 5;30ish suggesting there maybe not such a good hold going on perhaps???
that photo alone would have me VERY reluctant to fire it......
but still havent seen this taget with one hole in it.
and the bore needs a clean.

The saloon ammo he used is claimed safe for BP only proofed guns. Take the forewood off, hold the gun vertically by the barrel and twist sides to side rapidly, if it "clunks" she's not licking up tight and that's the funny noise on firing. Retire it either as a wall hanger or tomato stakes, you can get 2 by unsoldering the barrels which makes it a much better option than a 303 for that purpose.

Originally Posted by muzza

I would strongly advise against shooting any - and I mean ANY - modern or nitro ammo out of a damascus twist barrel. One day it is going to blow the barrel apart. Might not be today , might not be tomorrow - but it will blow the barrel apart and someone will get hurt.

Turn it into a wall hanger and save yourself the grief that is surely coming your way.

This cowboy ammo has very low chamber pressure, ive looked into this heavily before using. I have been told by the supplier that lots of people, particuarly those into cowboy action shooting use this ammo in damascus guns.
The pressure of these rounds is under 6000PSI, which is typical of a black powder round of its day.
I have looked into the deal with Damascus guns and there is alot of fear over them blowing apart, the condition of the barrel is more of the concern rather than the type of barrel. Personally I wouldnt use any heavy charge in a Damascus gun unless its nitro proofed, and I still would go for a lighter than normal load. Ideally I would like to hand load custom ammo for these older guns, but powder is limited.
The person who sold it to me said he was using it on the range with plack powder charges which were probably a heavier load than these cowboy loads.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Any photos of the target

I will be able to get some photos this weekend when im back out where I was shooting.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

even my old eyes can see those muzzles are no longer still round...... must be rather a hard life and soft barrel steel.... yip that dimascis so only VERY limited,very light loads...... wallhanger isnt such a silly idea.

Ive got an even older belgian gun with barrels in even worse condition with out of round muzzles and shoots perfect, the gunsmith told me it was safe to shoot with light loads and this thing had real tight chokes on it too. Its a shame its such an old gun, because if it was not in such bad shape, I would use the thing over my modern shotgun any day, it patterns beautifully, but I only use it to shoot clays with cowboy loads.
So the question is why these two guns perform so wildly different. Im wondering if the choke has something to do with it?
I will take some measurements with my calipers.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

also...look at muzzle end photo..the rib is coming adrift from barrel 4;00 from bead...and there is tiny cavity showing also 5;30ish suggesting there maybe not such a good hold going on perhaps???
that photo alone would have me VERY reluctant to fire it......
but still havent seen this taget with one hole in it.
and the bore needs a clean.

I only fired it because I trusted the seller was truthful when he said to me he had fired it days prior, it was clear there was remains of fibres from the wads inside the barrel from him using it. I have since cleaned it.
Now anyway, I know the gun is not in top notch condition, I knew this before i bought it since it was so stupidly cheap not to take it. I was really just curious to why the loads were punching such a clean hole in the board.
I think trying different ammo is not a bad idea, yes i know its really getting into wallhanger territory, i probably wont be using it alot, I still want to find a decent hammer gun thats more suitable for modern ammo.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The saloon ammo he used is claimed safe for BP only proofed guns. Take the forewood off, hold the gun vertically by the barrel and twist sides to side rapidly, if it "clunks" she's not licking up tight and that's the funny noise on firing. Retire it either as a wall hanger or tomato stakes, you can get 2 by unsoldering the barrels which makes it a much better option than a 303 for that purpose.

Yes thats correct, that saloon ammo is completley safe in these guns. Ive also got some winchester AA featherlite which is a similar powered load at 5800PSI.
It does have a sloppy action, but so does my other old belgian gun and doesnt make the same sound.