Thread: Suitable ammo for old hammer shotgun

Got a beautiful old 12 gauge shotgun I found at an arms show.
Have had a gunsmith check it all over and it should be safe to shoot.
My main concern is around the use of modern ammo.
It's not Damascus steel or anything, but doesn't have any nitro proof marks on it anywhere I can see. Apparently with this make, they never nitro proofed any of the guns they exported.

So it appears that if I want to be on the safe side I need to find some loads that are low pressure.
Ideally some custom reloads would be the best, but if anyone has any suggestions on what brands are available, that would be great.
I've found some off the shelf loads that are under 7000psi and likely suitable, but most retailers are out of stock.
I could go with b&p sub sound 28 or winchester AA featherlite. Falcon also have cowboy action rounds that are 980fps but I don't have the data for the pressure but it's likely low.
The winchester loads are the easiest ones to get currently.

Looking at reloading, there's tons of published loads that work, but not all powders are available here.
For example blue dot powder has a very close burn profile to black powder but is all out of stock.
I have seen loads with green dot and red dot that are suitable however.
Anyone have experience with this?

Target products make both super light in the std 70 mm and saloon which is much reduced load in a roll crimped 63 mm case. This may be important if your gun only has 2 1/2 inch chambers.
The saloon is certainly safe in Damascus barrels.
A decent gun shop would order you a slab and it's readily available

Originally Posted by muzza

Load some black powder loads.

Nitro loads might be ok , but they might not either ..... What value do you place on your personal safety?

Nitro loads can certainly be safe if they are made right, there are plenty of documented recipes out there with the quoted pressures. I would rather use smokeless if possible as it's not corrosive.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Target products make both super light in the std 70 mm and saloon which is much reduced load in a roll crimped 63 mm case. This may be important if your gun only has 2 1/2 inch chambers.
The saloon is certainly safe in Damascus barrels.
A decent gun shop would order you a slab and it's readily available

Ok will take a look at their super light. I'm assuming its probably fairly low in pressure.
My shop can order me a slab of cowboy rounds.
When I spoke to target products, they told me all their stuff uses the exact same powder, those loads just hold less of it.
When we measured the chambers, they are a bit longer than 70mm, so I should be ok.
What I find interesting is how pressure means nothing as far as velocity goes.
I've got data for so.e black powder loads that can reach 1300 fps, but are only around 5000psi!

[Whoops.

Edit.
2 3/4 chamber will be 70mm to the forcing cone, and around 80 to bore diameter

the load that i use in all my antique guns is. 2.5''cut down Winchester case ,w 209 primer,16.8 grains as30n powder,and fiber wad to suite the case length,24 grams of lead.the ADI website has this load with 2.75'' case and a plastic wad listed at 7000 psi.i have been using this load for about 3 years with no problems no.8 for sporting and no.9 for skeet

First, if you think the gun may be weak, it also has low safety margin for homebrew reloads.

The factory may have omitted proof tests simply because these were not required for export guns. They certainly would have made the guns as strong as ones going through proof testing for the home market.

Examine the gun carefully, clearance when closed with a feeler gauge, diameter of barrel at a couple marked spots. Then (using firing lanyard and rest) fire a couple hot cartridges, twice, having oiled the chamber walls beforehand.
Re-inspect with the gauges. Wallhanger if the dimensions are changed. You now own a DIY nitro proofed shotgun.

Originally Posted by Cordite

First, if you think the gun may be weak, it also has low safety margin for homebrew reloads.

The factory may have omitted proof tests simply because these were not required for export guns. They certainly would have made the guns as strong as ones going through proof testing for the home market.

Examine the gun carefully, clearance when closed with a feeler gauge, diameter of barrel at a couple marked spots. Then (using firing lanyard and rest) fire a couple hot cartridges, twice, having oiled the chamber walls beforehand.
Re-inspect with the gauges. Wallhanger if the dimensions are changed. You now own a DIY nitro proofed shotgun.

Thanks thats helpful info!
Yes your right, its a belgian Henri pieper model Daina 12 gauge, they never nitro proofed these for export, but as you say, the quality should still be the same.
I had the gunsmith measure the bores with his tool and although heavily pitted, said it should still be safe to use.
I ended up putting a whole box of winchester AA featherlite through it over the weekend and nothing has happened to the gun.
At least its avoided the fate of being a wallhanger, I have no idea when the gun was last fired, but its over 130 years old!
Despite all this, it seems to have a nice consistent pattern! I hit some clay targets with it quite effortlessly.
It should be a usable gun for rabbits and possums with the right loads.

I found some suitable recipies online on the likes of IMR's page and some others, main problem is the lack of supplies here, all we have for primers for example are all winchester 209, I wouldnt mind locating CCI, remington or cheddite primers if possible. Ficcohi have a low pressure primer too, perhaps contacting target products may be of assistance?
If anyone knows where american select powder can be bought would be helpful, but ive found a recipe that can make use of winchester primers and some IMR powders that are available.
It seems clay dot is quite a low pressure powder, but again is hard to find here at the moment.
Anyway, anything under 6500psi should be safe enough, but if i can get it as low as possible, it wont be a bad thing.
6500psi was about the highest pressure black powder cartridge at the time this gun was made, these AA featherlite cartridges are 5800psi.
I can get the pressure down with these recipies if I use a lower weight and/or velocity, but can still achieve 28g at 6200psi which is 1250fps.

Kilwell used to do a low pressure 2.5 inch game bore load that I had a good run with in my old girls. Not sure if its still available but I'll dig some out and give you the name.

Originally Posted by Pointer

Kilwell used to do a low pressure 2.5 inch game bore load that I had a good run with in my old girls. Not sure if its still available but I'll dig some out and give you the name.

Thanks, that could be helpful.
Im also guessing that ammo made with paper hulls and fibre wads would be lower pressure, I see a few companies making them these days and they kinda have a bit of a comeback, gamebore regal game is available from kilwell in paper but out of stock from what i can tell, thats still a fairly high pressure cartridge though.

Originally Posted by Old_School

Thanks, that could be helpful.
Im also guessing that ammo made with paper hulls and fibre wads would be lower pressure, I see a few companies making them these days and they kinda have a bit of a comeback, gamebore regal game is available from kilwell in paper but out of stock from what i can tell, thats still a fairly high pressure cartridge though.

I think the whole paper hull thing is more about being eco friendly more than pressure, bit like fibre wads. That Gamebore regal is anything but low pressure, at least the 16 bore load I've used is certainly honking along.

Originally Posted by Pointer

I think the whole paper hull thing is more about being eco friendly more than pressure, bit like fibre wads. That Gamebore regal is anything but low pressure, at least the 16 bore load I've used is certainly honking along.

I was told by a reloader that fibre wads in general give low pressure over plastic wads.
It would make sense since the plastic cup makes a good seal down the bore.
But its only marginally lower than plastic, but you might still loose about 1000psi with a fibre wad, depending on the type.

Eley used to and may well still make 2.5 inch shells for older 12 gauge guns. Sold over here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by GDMP

The cowboy/saloon shells that target products offers would be my go-to shell if I wanted low pressure loads for an older gun......

Yes, ive ordered a slab of them, have no idea on their pressure, but expect its similar to the winchester AA featherlite ive been using.
They are really only suitable for clay targets and perhaps birds.