Thread: Article

Originally Posted by ebf

Ruff, can you give me an example of how you would react or show your dog that it is doing something bad (or not desired) ? Is it "No!" in a particular tone of voice, do you make eye contact, do you move up to dominate its space ? What I am interested in is how YOU personally show a dog you are training that what it just did was not good ?

No, not really, you could do any of those things. if the dog respects your position.... in the real dog world, leaders don't do anything physical, their position is accepted and conformity happens with a look. so many people get a dog and set about insisting it understand human behavior... imagine how quick the process would transform if people were less arrogant and changed their behavior to something the dog could understand????

Originally Posted by Ruff

No, not really, you could do any of those things. if the dog respects your position.... in the real dog world, leaders don't do anything physical, their position is accepted and conformity happens with a look. so many people get a dog and set about insisting it understand human behavior... imagine how quick the process would transform if people were less arrogant and changed their behavior to something the dog could understand????

ok, so in the "real" dog world, if a dog does not accept the leader or does not show the required level of respect, are you saying the "alpha" dog for want of a better term just looks at the guilty party ? to me it seems like there is more of a threat of implied or actual violence.

i have spent a bit of time watching lots of different "pack" animals (baboons, wild dogs, lions etc). usually any sign of disrespect or stepping out of line is dealt with pretty harshly, yes ?

guess it all boils down to establishing who is top dog, in a pack a lot of that is learned behavior, but raising a single dog in a suburban setting where they are not getting that constant feedback from other dogs makes it a different kettle of fish...

Originally Posted by ebf

i have spent a bit of time watching lots of different "pack" animals (baboons, wild dogs, lions etc). usually any sign of disrespect or stepping out of line is dealt with pretty harshly, yes ?

No!

Originally Posted by ebf

ok, so in the "real" dog world, if a dog does not accept the leader or does not show the required level of respect, are you saying the "alpha" dog for want of a better term just looks at the guilty party ? to me it seems like there is more of a threat of implied or actual violence.

i have spent a bit of time watching lots of different "pack" animals (baboons, wild dogs, lions etc). usually any sign of disrespect or stepping out of line is dealt with pretty harshly, yes ?

guess it all boils down to establishing who is top dog, in a pack a lot of that is learned behavior, but raising a single dog in a suburban setting where they are not getting that constant feedback from other dogs makes it a different kettle of fish...

How you establish the heirachyb will depend on if you are dealing with an eight week old pup oir a seven year old entire dog... you want a whole book here in the forum..??? How simple do you think this shit is? Are people just pulling my leg>????

Originally Posted by Ruff

How you establish the heirachyb will depend on if you are dealing with an eight week old pup oir a seven year old entire dog... you want a whole book here in the forum..??? How simple do you think this shit is? Are people just pulling my leg>????

Ruff, I am asking simple, direct questions, so no, not pulling your leg...

Don't expect a "book", but it would help if you give some practical examples. You seem to be saying that you work on a "be the boss, and establish a hierarchy approach", but have not explained how you do this. I am specifically interested in techniques to do this in a training environment that is owner + 1 dog, not a pack setup. I understand that you do this for a living, and if sharing info on a forum is somehow not in the interest of your business, then just say it...

Originally Posted by Ruff

How simple do you think this shit is?

It is dog training, not particle physics... Wasn't it Einstein who said something along the lines that any complex subject can be explained in simple terms, or if you can't explain something to a 5 year old you don't understand it yourself ?

Originally Posted by ebf

Ruff, I am asking simple, direct questions, so no, not pulling your leg...

Don't expect a "book", but it would help if you give some practical examples. You seem to be saying that you work on a "be the boss, and establish a hierarchy approach", but have not explained how you do this. I am specifically interested in techniques to do this in a training environment that is owner + 1 dog, not a pack setup. I understand that you do this for a living, and if sharing info on a forum is somehow not in the interest of your business, then just say it...


It is dog training, not particle physics... Wasn't it Einstein who said something along the lines that any complex subject can be explained in simple terms, or if you can't explain something to a 5 year old you don't understand it yourself ?

Here is the answer to your private message...

You just said... "I am specifically interested in techniques to do this in a training environment that is owner + 1 dog, not a pack setup."

That is a pack set up... You +1 dog.. 2 individuals... dogs always have hierarchy... if there's two one is in charge, it changes dynamically... you cannot be the leader by deciding you are, you are only the leader while being a leader.

I get the impression you want me to give a simple example of walking with one shoulder lower than the other and all will be fine... it does not work like that, it is achieved with overall demeanor, body language, your tolerance to being ignored or disobeyed and how you react to those things... If you start with the basic principles of it and apply it you will see it work, from there you learn and develop as you do more training. It's not something that can be written in a text book to be learned over the next fortnight. Like deciding to take up horse riding reading a book and wanting to be an expert, it'll need a few years, a few horses before you get to a high standard. It's all here in the thread... I have just re read the entire thread... i don;t see where I've particularly aggressive to anyone, except to point out where methods are promoted that simply will not achieve what the handlers are wanting to achieve. You mentioned there being more than one way to skin a cat? Well not really, while there can be infinite variables in application the basic principle in dog handling remains the same... a dog is a dog and acts like a dog and understand being a dog. This limits the application of methods quite significantly to only those which the dog can understand and the basic principle of being a dog. The simple fact in the dog training world is 90% of the stuff people are taught doesn't work. That might seem bold, but it's the truth. I can explain further but have dogs to run, and don;t get snotty because I don;t feel like elaborating... If I offer something and someone doesn't get it and comes back at me with a snipey response I'll retain the right to say "bugger it" i can;t be bothered because while my writing style may seem as though I am uptight I'm as relaxed as hell and my dogs are just fine... I'm not the one here with the problems or issues.

Originally Posted by ebf

ok, so in the "real" dog world, if a dog does not accept the leader or does not show the required level of respect, are you saying the "alpha" dog for want of a better term just looks at the guilty party ? to me it seems like there is more of a threat of implied or actual violence.

i have spent a bit of time watching lots of different "pack" animals (baboons, wild dogs, lions etc). usually any sign of disrespect or stepping out of line is dealt with pretty harshly, yes ?

guess it all boils down to establishing who is top dog, in a pack a lot of that is learned behavior, but raising a single dog in a suburban setting where they are not getting that constant feedback from other dogs makes it a different kettle of fish...

If the dog does not accept you as the leader it is not the dog you need to work with. You need to learn YOUR job better.

Originally Posted by Ruff

if the dog respects your position.... in the real dog world, leaders don't do anything physical, their position is accepted and conformity happens with a look.

Hmmm. Interesting, HOWEVER I call bullshit. Even the dogs themselves understand the pack leader. EVERY pack has one, and it doesn't get to be leader for no reason. They tell each other off, and it often isn't just with a growl or a bark.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Hmmm. Interesting, HOWEVER I call bullshit. Even the dogs themselves understand the pack leader. EVERY pack has one,

Yes and with my packs it's ME! and I don;t allow any of the crap you are saying goes on.