Thread: Article

Originally Posted by Tussock

Animals will challenge for rank. But only a weak ineffectual leader will be challenged. If your having to beat your dog, your not the alpha. Your a bad leader. A bad leader will be challenged in a pack even with the threat of violence, because bad leaders get packs killed, just like they wreck businesses and sports teams and armies in the human world.

To use the barking example earlier, my dog is half huntaway. She never barks. When I picked her up at 8 weeks, she barked non stop. As in I put her in the truck and she started barking and didn't stop. I said "ut" which is my "that's wrong" word in a low firm voice with good posture anytime I caught her in the act, where she was engrossed in barking and where it was obvious what I was the negative behaviour was. I caught her in the act plenty. Your training a dog, it's your job to catch them in the act. It's the only time you can discipline a dog.

If your genuinely the alpha, everything becomes relatively easy. Ruff is right. You can tell them off with a look. If my dog walks up to an object, and I take position of it, with a little growl, a half under the breath "ut". 9 times out of 10' that's the last time she will ever look at it. She will visibly submit, and I will give her a pat, and reward the submissive behaviour. If she tries again, it's a wee challenge and so I increase the correction a little to match, posturing up a bit and growling with a wee bit more menace. A dog will correct an out of control puppy by swatting it on its back with one paw and holding it down for a second. The pup gets an "oh shit, I've really gone and done it now look on its face, but it will get up tail wagging. Blink and you will miss it, except the puppy has gone from overexcited to calm and submissive. Ever watched people trying to get a hyper active puppy under control?

Also have another look at those baboon packs etc. Internal violence in packs in nature is rare. Lots of time and effort is put into bonds between members in a pack. Animals get team building. That's why dogs greet you so delightedly, and why my dog wants to lick hell out of me, and why I'm reluctant to be too hard on her for it. Violence does no good at all to those bonds, and injuries would just weaken the pack. It's counterproductive. Dominance is established with posturing, rules and discipline.

If you beat or electrocute your dog, you will get submission, temporarily, but the dog will keep challenging you because your an incompetent leader.

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

What I was trying to get at previously is asking if it is much harder training a single dog vs training a young dog where he/she sees how other dogs are behaving (well). In a pack (dogs, baboons, whatever) is it only the alpha that maintains discipline, or is it not also some of the other dogs "leading" by example ?

And sure, we humans don't necessarily get/understand dog/pack behavior. Pretty much the same can be said for some of these doggy debates where a couple of folks don't seem to realize that a debate/questions about training is not an alpha contest

Originally Posted by ebf

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

You should never growl at a dog... very submissive behavior.

Originally Posted by ebf

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

What I was trying to get at previously is asking if it is much harder training a single dog vs training a young dog where he/she sees how other dogs are behaving (well). In a pack (dogs, baboons, whatever) is it only the alpha that maintains discipline, or is it not also some of the other dogs "leading" by example ?

And sure, we humans don't necessarily get/understand dog/pack behavior. Pretty much the same can be said for some of these doggy debates where a couple of folks don't seem to realize that a debate/questions about training is not an alpha contest

Tussock has made a lot of sense. and I'll leave it with him as he articulates it better. You'll find most good dog handlers are very black and white people and so say things extremely directly... that's all I'm doing, I'm not being aggressive i am being forthright. In the dog world things either work or they don't and people seem to take my forthright approach as aggressive, it isn't. Simply there are facts and there are untruths... people will make a great case for things that don;t work... here is an example...

Originally Posted by el borracho

I use an ecollar and think they're a great tool for a dog that wont answer a command -my dog is well trained but wont always answer lke a robot so get a vibration o a low level zap.

A dog won't respond like a robot as it is a living creature. It should, however, if "well trained" respond. It cannot be well trained and not respond, if it doesn't respond it isn't well enough trained or requires more or more skilled training. The collar is used at the point where the know how ran out.

but this is presented almost like the disobedience is something to value because the dog isn't a robot..... it's that sort of thing that just stops people learning further because they have convinced themselves to accept such a low standard.

A dog won't respond like a robot as it is a living creature. It should, however, if "well trained" respond. It cannot be well trained and not respond, if it doesn't respond it isn't well enough trained or requires more or more skilled training. The collar is used at the point where the know how ran out.

but this is presented almost like the disobedience is something to value because the dog isn't a robot..... it's that sort of thing that just stops people learning further because they have convinced themselves to accept such a low standard.[/QUOTE]
Im afraid this is simply not true Ruff of hunting dogs I have seen that are trained to hunt at a high level -not one has a clean slate and to imply that a highly trained dog will always answer just isnt correct!!!

I like your work though Ruff and people should listen to your advice as it is good

Originally Posted by el borracho

Im afraid this is simply not true Ruff of hunting dogs I have seen that are trained to hunt at a high level -not one has a clean slate and to imply that a highly trained dog will always answer just isnt correct!!!

I like your work though Ruff and people should listen to your advice as it is good

I agree you may not have seen it... I reiterate it is 100% correct. I go back to my comments about works and what doesn't and also the standards people accept not knowing there is a better standard that is very achievable. If the dog is properly trained to respond, it responds, if it doesn;t respond then the training has not been up to standard... otherwise... what is training achieving....????