Thread: Article

Originally Posted by Dundee

Get her a collar

v

I use an ecollar and think they're a great tool for a dog that wont answer a command -my dog is well trained but wont always answer lke a robot so get a vibration o a low level zap.

the thing with training is there are different methods that suit different people and some work better than others for different people and dogs -dogs certainly have their own personalities as do humans .To out rightly knock using Ecollars as a solid training advice would be very ignorant I believe as do thousands of trainers that have had success.Obviously different arguments can proceed from here for example -if your dog doesn't have the Ecollar on then will he not obey - probably will and maybe not as much as if he did depending on excitement factor of his surroundings .
I would prefer the no Ecollar method but don't have 24/7 to train a dog to the level I want .If you train without one will your dog be better than one trian with a collar ---64000$ question and unless you can put up in a hunting or trial format to show that winning training it all just semantics.
Now in saying all of this I would not be adverse to listening to Ruff about his methods as it is what he does day in day out and not to "consider" his opinion would also be folly

Originally Posted by el borracho

the thing with training is there are different methods that suit different people and some work better than others for different people and dogs -dogs certainly have their own personalities as do humans .To out rightly knock using Ecollars as a solid training advice would be very ignorant I believe as do thousands of trainers that have had success.Obviously different arguments can proceed from here for example -if your dog doesn't have the Ecollar on then will he not obey - probably will and maybe not as much as if he did depending on excitement factor of his surroundings .
I would prefer the no Ecollar method but don't have 24/7 to train a dog to the level I want .If you train without one will your dog be better than one trian with a collar ---64000$ question and unless you can put up in a hunting or trial format to show that winning training it all just semantics

The best trained dogs Ive seen were sheep trial dogs in Wanaka last year, they were amazing, and trained with alkathene, I dont approve as Im a bit of a soft cock on animals, but what you say is correct to each his own.

Tussock, I do not agree with you about Cesear Millan. However, I do think you are on the same track as Ruff (who I am very interested in, but unfortunately getting roared such as like your example, makes me want to not read further)

Cesear is a bit over the top and forgive me if I am wrong Ruff, but he's what you're talking about with the quick-fix, yes? He's quite a flashy, step-in handler who at the end of the 60min program has this 'perfect' dog. I quickly stopped reading the thread where I included a video of Ceasar getting bitten, so I am not entirely sure on Ruff's opinion of him.

Anyway all I can say is that when I first was interested in dog training (around age 10) I thought Ceasar was amazeballs. Since finding more information, I don't feel quite the same which is fine! It's called learning and growing up and forming an opinion.

I know I am going to get shot down and growled at for this, but here's my 24months baby experience of +R training answer to the 'ignoring bad behaviour' question.

+ Positive. Meaning, something added.
- Negative. Meaning, something taken away.
P Punishment. Something that happens to discourage behaviour being repeted
R Reinforcement. Something that happens to encourage behaviour being repeted.

+R mark and reward for sitting during a greeting. 'Reward' can be food, toy, patting, attention.
-P turn away when dog is jumping up during a greeting. Leave the room. Remove rewarding stimulous.

+P Pinch dogs ear when jumping up during a greeting.
-R Stop pinching when not jumping up.

-------

+R Give discounted rates to people who pay their phone bill ontime.
-P Remove discounts to late payers. Block phone usage. Block future use of that company.

+P Employ door knockers to continually bash on the door and house of those who have not paid, starting from the moment their bill was due. Bashing has to be so loud that phone cannot be used well (can't hear)
-R Once customer has paid, stop the noise.

Okay that last one was really hard to come up with, but I hope I have given good enough examples

EDIT as I am sure everyone knows by now, I only have experience/research on domestic, family dogs. I don't do hunting dogs. Also this thread was started by me and it was to give people an insight on +R training not just at home but also with working dogs. With over 2000 members is it? I am sure the majority of dog owners on this forum actually own 'pot-lickers' (such as my own dog) and not working or hunting dogs. Phew. Does that cover me for not getting sued?

One needs to pick apart training and the actions of a dog that you want to train --what are we really talking about here ?? What is happening in the training and how are you training for these action -whats going wrong and what are you doing to correct those actions .
All the talk of training is just blah blah to a degree -what are we talking about???

What Tussock said. I like it. I think that is what Ruff is trying to say too.

The Huntaway thing - I am a believer that this trait has been bread into them and they will do it at some point no matter what. I have many friends with Huntaways (as pets) and they expect no barking, unless given a time. And they are given plenty of times to go nuts, bark, be a dog, be a Huntaway. At home and when company is around, that is not the time to be a barking crazy dog. When asked ("voice!" or "are you talking?" etc etc) they are rewarded for the barking and growling, howling, doing their thing.

I just read an interesting book called "How to fix a dog gone wrong" by Pemela Dennison, I enjoyed it. It was my first experience looking into the causes and how to manage aggression.

Originally Posted by Dougie

I just read an interesting book called "How to fix a dog gone wrong" by Pemela Dennison, I enjoyed it. It was my first experience looking into the causes and how to manage aggression.

Did it include any lead?

Originally Posted by Maca49

Did it include any lead?

? I don't understand if this is a joke or what?

Tussock - sounds like your pup is a pretty cool wee character. Dundee has a huntaway x Lab, he's a tall boy, super fast runner too! Bigger boof head than a pure lab. Cool guy. Did you like the look of the labs in the article (first post)? They have rather sweet faces. I'm not a huge lab person but slowly being converted....Scribe's dog was great, it was good to see a lab in action and not just under a dinner table cleaning up all the scraps!

Originally Posted by Tussock

Animals will challenge for rank. But only a weak ineffectual leader will be challenged. If your having to beat your dog, your not the alpha. Your a bad leader. A bad leader will be challenged in a pack even with the threat of violence, because bad leaders get packs killed, just like they wreck businesses and sports teams and armies in the human world.

To use the barking example earlier, my dog is half huntaway. She never barks. When I picked her up at 8 weeks, she barked non stop. As in I put her in the truck and she started barking and didn't stop. I said "ut" which is my "that's wrong" word in a low firm voice with good posture anytime I caught her in the act, where she was engrossed in barking and where it was obvious what I was the negative behaviour was. I caught her in the act plenty. Your training a dog, it's your job to catch them in the act. It's the only time you can discipline a dog.

If your genuinely the alpha, everything becomes relatively easy. Ruff is right. You can tell them off with a look. If my dog walks up to an object, and I take position of it, with a little growl, a half under the breath "ut". 9 times out of 10' that's the last time she will ever look at it. She will visibly submit, and I will give her a pat, and reward the submissive behaviour. If she tries again, it's a wee challenge and so I increase the correction a little to match, posturing up a bit and growling with a wee bit more menace. A dog will correct an out of control puppy by swatting it on its back with one paw and holding it down for a second. The pup gets an "oh shit, I've really gone and done it now look on its face, but it will get up tail wagging. Blink and you will miss it, except the puppy has gone from overexcited to calm and submissive. Ever watched people trying to get a hyper active puppy under control?

Also have another look at those baboon packs etc. Internal violence in packs in nature is rare. Lots of time and effort is put into bonds between members in a pack. Animals get team building. That's why dogs greet you so delightedly, and why my dog wants to lick hell out of me, and why I'm reluctant to be too hard on her for it. Violence does no good at all to those bonds, and injuries would just weaken the pack. It's counterproductive. Dominance is established with posturing, rules and discipline.

If you beat or electrocute your dog, you will get submission, temporarily, but the dog will keep challenging you because your an incompetent leader.

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

What I was trying to get at previously is asking if it is much harder training a single dog vs training a young dog where he/she sees how other dogs are behaving (well). In a pack (dogs, baboons, whatever) is it only the alpha that maintains discipline, or is it not also some of the other dogs "leading" by example ?

And sure, we humans don't necessarily get/understand dog/pack behavior. Pretty much the same can be said for some of these doggy debates where a couple of folks don't seem to realize that a debate/questions about training is not an alpha contest

Originally Posted by ebf

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

You should never growl at a dog... very submissive behavior.

Originally Posted by ebf

Thanks Tussock, that makes sense, and was even done without growling

What I was trying to get at previously is asking if it is much harder training a single dog vs training a young dog where he/she sees how other dogs are behaving (well). In a pack (dogs, baboons, whatever) is it only the alpha that maintains discipline, or is it not also some of the other dogs "leading" by example ?

And sure, we humans don't necessarily get/understand dog/pack behavior. Pretty much the same can be said for some of these doggy debates where a couple of folks don't seem to realize that a debate/questions about training is not an alpha contest

Tussock has made a lot of sense. and I'll leave it with him as he articulates it better. You'll find most good dog handlers are very black and white people and so say things extremely directly... that's all I'm doing, I'm not being aggressive i am being forthright. In the dog world things either work or they don't and people seem to take my forthright approach as aggressive, it isn't. Simply there are facts and there are untruths... people will make a great case for things that don;t work... here is an example...

Originally Posted by el borracho

I use an ecollar and think they're a great tool for a dog that wont answer a command -my dog is well trained but wont always answer lke a robot so get a vibration o a low level zap.

A dog won't respond like a robot as it is a living creature. It should, however, if "well trained" respond. It cannot be well trained and not respond, if it doesn't respond it isn't well enough trained or requires more or more skilled training. The collar is used at the point where the know how ran out.

but this is presented almost like the disobedience is something to value because the dog isn't a robot..... it's that sort of thing that just stops people learning further because they have convinced themselves to accept such a low standard.

A dog won't respond like a robot as it is a living creature. It should, however, if "well trained" respond. It cannot be well trained and not respond, if it doesn't respond it isn't well enough trained or requires more or more skilled training. The collar is used at the point where the know how ran out.

but this is presented almost like the disobedience is something to value because the dog isn't a robot..... it's that sort of thing that just stops people learning further because they have convinced themselves to accept such a low standard.[/QUOTE]
Im afraid this is simply not true Ruff of hunting dogs I have seen that are trained to hunt at a high level -not one has a clean slate and to imply that a highly trained dog will always answer just isnt correct!!!

I like your work though Ruff and people should listen to your advice as it is good

Originally Posted by el borracho

Im afraid this is simply not true Ruff of hunting dogs I have seen that are trained to hunt at a high level -not one has a clean slate and to imply that a highly trained dog will always answer just isnt correct!!!

I like your work though Ruff and people should listen to your advice as it is good

I agree you may not have seen it... I reiterate it is 100% correct. I go back to my comments about works and what doesn't and also the standards people accept not knowing there is a better standard that is very achievable. If the dog is properly trained to respond, it responds, if it doesn;t respond then the training has not been up to standard... otherwise... what is training achieving....????