Thread: Article

I agree Wirehunt. A serious hunting dog doesn't do what told just by making him read books. Even a proper trained dog which is perfectly obedient on gameless ground, will test you when he gets into a hedge with game in front of him. If he wouldn't test you, he wouldn't be seriously hunting. I mean the type of dog that only has one goal = finding game. A dog that the moment he gets game scent in his nose forgets everything, even that he has a boss. In pre-collar time, you needed to run him down and have a constructive conversation. This sometimes took weeks to get it O.K. With modern technology he soon discovers that the bosses arm is far longer than he thought it was.
Dan Langhans, who made up the most FtCh Springer Spaniels in the US, uses the collar since the early 70's from last century. A man who proved that he can do it. Speaking to him is one of the most valuable things I ever did.

My 4 year old 30 kg stud dog growls at his 12 week old 11 kg son son when he annoys him and will give him a shot if he doesn't respond to the growl, elevating the response until the pup responds. My old weim does the same thing. Are you suggesting the big dogs are uncertain of their position? I assure they have no doubt and are just disciplining the young'n.

Originally Posted by Tussock

Fights don't occur between the dog at the top of the pecking order and the dog at the bottom.

That's right, top dogs beat the bottom dogs. And they don't pick a fight, they dish out a hiding.

Second comment is if you only have one dog, in a pack you guide the top dog and the other dogs tend to look to it.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Hmmm. Interesting, HOWEVER I call bullshit. Even the dogs themselves understand the pack leader. EVERY pack has one,

Yes and with my packs it's ME! and I don;t allow any of the crap you are saying goes on.

Interesting, I don't leave any dog in the top position in my packs... I holds that... scraps can occur between lesser dogs and are stopped by the top dog... me... and the result is those behaviors disappear and the dogs respect who holds the position, it reinforces it. Because hierarchy is dynamic, if you stand idly by and let this crap happen, in that oment you've left the role, given it to the aggressor and are creating more handling confusion for later.

It seems some contend the options are "Old fashioned methods" or an e-collar.... I didn't realise the options were that limited... I use modern methods, no e-collar... the most successful trainers in the world (I don't include the Americans in this, especially with spaniels as the US has been the UK's dumping ground for a long time with spaniels) don't use the e-collar or old fashioned training methods...

Watch Lissett's dogs work... I'll guarantee you two things... 1) They've never seen an e-collar, 2) They've never had "constructive conversation"....

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

I agree Wirehunt. I mean the type of dog that only has one goal = finding game. A dog that the moment he gets game scent in his nose forgets everything, even that he has a boss. In pre-collar time, you needed to run him down and have a constructive conversation.

This would only occur if the pre training had been substandard... Long time since I had to run a dog down and give a hiding... that is old fashioned, but the alternative is there and it's doesn;t have to be an e-collar. Sounds like a leaderless dog hunting, not including the handler in the hunt, again, in my world that would amount to poor pre-training.

I don;t want to be reliant on an external device to run a dog... at the other pub a guy is trying to source a battery for his unit, the old one died, he'll get another one this week, what does he do in the interim? I can't be bothered with that if I can a result without it... I think it is far better to just have me and my dog and go hunting, and I don;t like a dog working in any collar...

Seems people here have a very narrow outlook on things... it seems the status quo is we either have to beat them or shock them... I'd offer there are much better ways... much! I am actually a bit flummoxed people see it this way when there are much better methodology on offer.

It's a rare day I beat the dogs, in fact I can't remember the last time. It's also unusual for the collar to come out apart from stock training, but it does.

I don't see anyone using a whip. This is a fantastic tool. No you don't flog them with it, but they pay real close attention when it's waved around and makes a bit of noise. At worst I'll lay it over there back, there is no pain involved. Not cracking it on them, just lay it over.

The throat hold is another very useful tool just to remind them who the boss is, again rarely used.

What a hoot this pre training thing is. All very nice if you get the dog young, real young, but as a rule mine are a little older before I get them....

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

It's a rare day I beat the dogs, in fact I can't remember the last time. It's also unusual for the collar to come out apart from stock training, but it does.

I don't see anyone using a whip. This is a fantastic tool. No you don't flog them with it, but they pay real close attention when it's waved around and makes a bit of noise. At worst I'll lay it over there back, there is no pain involved. Not cracking it on them, just lay it over.

The throat hold is another very useful tool just to remind them who the boss is, again rarely used.

What a hoot this pre training thing is. All very nice if you get the dog young, real young, but as a rule mine are a little older before I get them....

No, you can pre-train a dog for game at any age... Throat hold? Works in the moment, but it's just arguing the point with a dog, I don;t get into that argument... I hold myself above it, as do most pack leaders... most aggressors in a pack are challenging, not disciplining, there are exceptions, but most....

now you say pre-training is a hoot, but by your comments i have to assume you don;t even know what I'm on about, but still want to decry it... far out, imagine if there's something new to learn here, but hey... maybe not...

No, what I mean is around here it's not do-able. It would be nice but not practical.

Fair enough

I fully agree that Lisset's dogs probably never have seen an e-collar. Spaniels changed so dramaticly the last decades that the majority of UK springers no longer truly hunt. If you have a soft, fast, stylish springer who only thinks about pleasing you instead of finding game, you don't need any repression. I know what I say. I only am two hours from the UK and had and have seen enough of those modern spaniels to make an opinion about them. The trough spaniel, who after hitting sent only once or twice at young age, goes berserk and turns a wood up and down to find what is in front of him, that's the one I speak about. The type of dog that needs the skills of the most experienced trainer to be kept under control. The pitty is that you hardly don't find them any more. In Mike Smith's book, Lawton Evans ( one of the greatest trainers ever), declares that he had to exaust Coppicewood Carla the 2 or 3 days before the trial in a root field, just to be able to keep on top of her. These days there hardly is a dog that boils over, because they lack the steam.
Ian Bateson told me that 25/30 years ago you could see 12 out of 15 handlers struggle to keep the dog under control and now you're lucky if you see 1. Are all the trainers that much better or is the breed going down?

Sounds like my lot Hales
Monday they are fucking hopeless for at least half an hour, then they will start settling into it (maybe) Tuesday it only takes ten minutes and pretty much the same for the rest of the week. They only do a four day week maximum as it is just to hard on them to do much more.....

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

I fully agree that Lisset's dogs probably never have seen an e-collar. Spaniels changed so dramaticly the last decades that the majority of UK springers no longer truly hunt. If you have a soft, fast, stylish springer who only thinks about pleasing you instead of finding game, you don't need any repression. I know what I say. I only am two hours from the UK and had and have seen enough of those modern spaniels to make an opinion about them. The trough spaniel, who after hitting sent only once or twice at young age, goes berserk and turns a wood up and down to find what is in front of him, that's the one I speak about. The type of dog that needs the skills of the most experienced trainer to be kept under control. The pitty is that you hardly don't find them any more. In Mike Smith's book, Lawton Evans ( one of the greatest trainers ever), declares that he had to exaust Coppicewood Carla the 2 or 3 days before the trial in a root field, just to be able to keep on top of her. These days there hardly is a dog that boils over, because they lack the steam.
Ian Bateson told me that 25/30 years ago you could see 12 out of 15 handlers struggle to keep the dog under control and now you're lucky if you see 1. Are all the trainers that much better or is the breed going down?

Sounds like you make a lot of assumptions Hales... I've had spaniels for 30 years, some of them going back to very hard hunting lines from Earlandsons era... he too lamented the change in the spaniel even then and I agree there are alot of soft ones around these days... too soft... but we have some of the best spaniels in the world down here and I'd challenge you to find a harder hunting spaniel than the majority of dogs from the Ballyblack lines we have down here, my old dog is typical of them, hard to handle (Compared to the new soft types) and hard as nails in tough cover and extremely driven on game, even now at 12 years old..... which is why the Ballyblacks consistently beat and show up the imports that regularly come in from the UK... One of our leading trainers here describes those softer types of dogs as "English white grass dogs"... so before you get all conceited and think you are going to educate these poor ignorant down under peasants about spaniels you might want to pull your head in a bit because you don;t live 2 hours from New Zealand and you don;t have a clue about our spaniels down here ... obviously... I agree with the change, for the worse, in spaniels and how soft they've got, nothing new, Earlandson was talking about the start of it 30 yeras ago and warned against it and no one listened, well, very few..... none of that makes a case for an e-collar, it does, to me make one hell of a case for not being able to handle a hard going dog without one though...

and for the record when commercial training or just helping mates out I work regularly and with some rarer ones not so regularly with Labradors, spaniels, Chesapeake Bay retrievers, German Wirehairs, German Shorthairs, Curly Coat retrievers, Viszla's, Setters, Pointers and cross breeds of these and more....

and none of them ever get a collar from me, and none of them get a hiding either... as i appear to get a result it almost seems unexplainable aye? or maybe you folks have just decided there is only your way of doing it and are going to stick with that... good on ya.

In no way I would think of downgrading the NZ spaniels, as I don't know them at all. In the past I tried to find more info on the Ballyblack spaniels, but there isn't much about them on the internet.
I do know the modern English white grass dogs and can fully understand these are very easy to train, but not easy to get them hunt if you don't have the amount of game seen in the UK. I do neither want to convince anybody to use the e-collar, but I know it's a usefull tool when properly used. I have , on paper , the method Joe Greatorex used on the O'Vara spaniels. He put them in the rabbit pen for hours or days (without he being there) . The moment they started to kill to much rabbits he stopped putting them in. I think you will agree that the moment you train this dog, he just doesn't stop chasing a rabbit when you blow the stop whistle for the first,second or third time.
When you read Erlandson's first book about his 17 Champions, you will see that a good few where non hunters that took time to get going. I don't like this type of dog. It's fine when you have plenty of game, but not if the dog only gets 1 find every hour in the hardest of cover.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

I think you will agree that the moment you train this dog, he just doesn't stop chasing a rabbit when you blow the stop whistle for the first,second or third time.
When you read Erlandson's first book about his 17 Champions, you will see that a good few where non hunters that took time to get going. I don't like this type of dog. It's fine when you have plenty of game, but not if the dog only gets 1 find every hour in the hardest of cover.

No I won;t agree... yes he will, if he's been trained to stop properly in the first place, yes he is harder to stop than a white grass dog, all the more reason your stop whistle training has to be that much sharper for the tougher type of dog.....

On preserves we have a ton of game, but one pheasant an hour would be a good days hunting here in our public forests... our dogs are up to it... and I can tell, at a trial, the difference between a dog capable of that type of work and one that lives and works on preserves only. (Preserves = Pheasant Estates).

Ballyblack's, you won;t find much online, Jim Clarke (Mr Ballyblack) is in his Eighties and doesn't spend much time online. I think our spaniels could go the same road. I am breeding back to Ballyblack lines to try and keep them, others are looking to imports... be interesting to see how that all works out.

I believe by the time you have the skill to use an e-collar properly, you don;t need one

Originally Posted by Ruff

I believe by the time you have the skill to use an e-collar properly, you don;t need one

Have a dog hard headed enough and you do.