Thread: Dog training problems and answers

Ok Dougie.... here is my thoughts.

It's an easy fix on the face of it... but the cause is all your "positive" training. Not a dig, this is the consequence. Do not misunderstand this to mean there should be no positive's in training or that some positives equate to positive reinforcement training. You described it perfectly when you said "reward good behavior and ignore bad behavior". I say it doesn't work, you claim it does... so wouldn't the logical answer be to ignore the creeping and reward when he stays put? Just sayin? Or is the method flawed?

Ok, dig aside.... It is because of this very type of issue that purely positive reinforcement training never works. yes, elements of it can be used to polish some behaviors (Some field triallers use food to get a decent heel, not my thing, but hey...) but it is only effective for teaching behaviors and not gaining control. Control is the mindset that even when the dog feels there is something better to do it must reject that and comply with what the handler wants. Here's a big statement... In a high prey drive dog in a high prey drive situation it is impossible to achieve with positive reinforcement only.

Using the analogy I used earlier in the thread.. your dog creeping in a down is the equivalent of a human at a stop sign, no traffic coming, and not a cop in sight... = not one reason to comply with the sign and it is being ignored. Because the dog is at a distance you have no way to reward it for not creeping. You don;t use any negative reinforcement so it has no basis to understand that it must comply. To get it right you need to introduce a plain marked police car fifty meters from the intersection with the officer already having his book out. In other words, to get a truly polished result in a high distraction situation the dog has to believe there will be a negative consequence for non compliance... just like the real world is for everyone and everything else.

If I was working with a dog with this issue all that would be required to correct the "creeping" in quite short order would be a step toward the dog. That and "Oi" are the lightest corrections used and in a well raised dog, the ones used 90% of the time. Going back to my other posts it is the equivalent of the "warning" from the leader. Non compliance at that point simply requires the handler continue. If the dog is reached then it is taken back, the command re-given, quite unceremoniously and it is repeated until the dog realizes non compliance will bring with it a negative consequence. The majority of dogs, if your earlier training is sound, will correct themselves on the first step. Why? The leader moving in is a warning that what it is doing is unacceptable. If the leader has respect the dog wants to do two things... 1) Not piss the "boss" off and 2) remove the psychological pressure it now feels as the leader is warning... the only way to relieve that pressure is to comply, and the smart handler backs off the instant the dog complies. The dog's entire mindset becomes one of "I remain in a stress free happy state when I comply". It may have better things to do, but they do not over-ride the respect it has for the leader. Where most people stuff it up is they go from extreme to the other, either no negative or way too much. The dog is never given the option to adjust it's behavior and in doing so relieve its own pressure and please the handler.

How do you approach this? I really don;t know? If you haven;t established the relationship by which the dog respects your position as leader and you cannot do that with positives alone, (although many if not most, misunderstand leadership and if they are or are not the leader) If the dog does not accept that there are consequences to non-compliance how on earth would you fix it. I guess you could sit him down and have a chat and explain it to him... you could ignore it, or you could start to re-evaluate your relationship with your dog knowing that if you rebuild the foundation of your relationship then you have the best of both world's a happy stress free dog that knows what is needed and required and no interest in flouting any of that because it has never worked for him in the past. That's how my dogs are raised.

Dogs only do what works for them or doesn't. If, from Day one, non compliance brings no reward they quickly lose it as a thought process. Unfortunately most handlers who go this route over use corrections and the punishments far outweigh the crime and ultimately create more confusion. The real art of training a dog to be under control is the art of correction. The art of correction starts with very low level corrections and dogs read the pattern so it is extremely rare, and i can;t think of a gun-dog breed tough enough to go there, that a dog will take this process to a place requiring harsh treatment, ear pinches etc.

I doubt you will accept much of this, but you might. If you want to try it I can share more info, if not, I won't waste my Saturday morning prattling on anymore....

Footnote: There is one other important thing to consider and impossible for me to evaluate without seeing the dog. By looks of the photos i have seen your dog seems fairly robust and I'm guessing is not younger than 2 years but please correct me if I am wrong. Some younger dogs, usually bitches of breeds predisposed to softness (I.e: Springers) will often creep in from stops when young through insecurity. I usually don;t worry about this finding as they mature and gain confidence they fix it themselves. In that instance you should never "correct', even a step, for insecurity. But a trick which I have used and is useful is to get the dog out running around with someone with you the dog knows and is familiar with and accepting of. Walk casually but separately from the other person... when the dog is running close to the other person give the stop command. In even the softest of dogs the presence of the other person usually gives them enough confidence to stop and remain stopped. I did this with Cheyenne at 18 months (Very soft bitch) and fixed it in 15 minutes. I have since used the methodology on several others with the same result. Once, having experienced no great issue with stopping away from the boss usually just accept it easily.

Lastly, go for several very fast stops and releases quite quickly. The dog will learn the need to stop better by doing it several times for short durations than it will you starting off trying to achieve a stop and enforce it for a period of time. If the dog is insecure then the longer the stop the more the insecurity will build. Teach the lesson by giving the dog confidence it can do it. If the basic lesson is stop and don;t move until I say "OK" then several short ones will teach it far more than one long one. Practise with the short ones will see the long ones just fall into place.

Interesting post Ruff, tx for taking the time. that "oi" and step closer sounds like the LOOK most moms perfect, nothing more needed to let a child now you'd better stop that shit right now or there'llbe consequences

Originally Posted by ebf

Interesting post Ruff, tx for taking the time. that "oi" and step closer sounds like the LOOK most moms perfect, nothing more needed to let a child now you'd better stop that shit right now or there'llbe consequences

I might have confused that a bit. You don;t need the "Oi" with the step closer, just the step closer... The "Oi" might be used in another situation, usually on a moving dog. I only put them together as examples of the lowest level corrections.

The thing is though, if the dog doesn;t have proper respect it won;t give a shit, just like the kids.. LOL

In fact it's a similar thing to why so many kids are little shitbags today as to why so many dogs are. Everyone is so busy looking after their "self-esteem" they forget to teach them "SELF RESPECT".

Hey Ruff I enjoyed that read, I agree with a lot of what you have said. Thanks for the read and tips, good stuff. Just try to keep my feelings out of it though, "I doubt you will accept" etc, from what I remember you have not met me. Honestly dude it sucks because I think you are really a great trainer and I admire your passion but I feel that if you want to get people on your side and introduce them to the 'light' of your methods, you seriously need to work on your manners.

Anyway! Thank you, I did enjoy that. And yes my boy is just turned 2years and is a soft dog, he is not overly confident. He is like a large Spaniel size (30kilo but quite muss!).

Originally Posted by Dougie

Hey Ruff I enjoyed that read, I agree with a lot of what you have said. Thanks for the read and tips, good stuff. Just try to keep my feelings out of it though, "I doubt you will accept" etc, from what I remember you have not met me. Honestly dude it sucks because I think you are really a great trainer and I admire your passion but I feel that if you want to get people on your side and introduce them to the 'light' of your methods, you seriously need to work on your manners.

Anyway! Thank you, I did enjoy that. And yes my boy is just turned 2years and is a soft dog, he is not overly confident. He is like a large Spaniel size (30kilo but quite muss!).

Firstly, don;t tell me how to post or talk about my manners. I'll do what I want. You do the same thing constantly so don;t be a blimmin hypocrite.

I have not a care in the world if someone wants to adopt my methods or not. I put them out there and if people want to use them they can. i also point out the methods liberally spread around that simply do not work. the rest is up to them. I am not the one with the problems, I'm happy, my dogs are happy, it's up to lothers to use what works or not, their choice to do so won't change my day.
Likewise you haven;t met me...

If I tried training with treats my dog would laugh at me --seriously I cannot get him to eat his dinner at night ,he eats only when he wants and I leave him to it.

Originally Posted by el borracho

If I tried training with treats my dog would laugh at me --seriously I cannot get him to eat his dinner at night ,he eats only when he wants and I leave him to it.

Any dog interested in treats while hunting is not worth feeding (except Labs )

the bottomless pitt=lab

To the question of a stop...

Obviously there's no distractions here but he'll do it the same regardless of what's going on

Ok, good idea....

Much the same, he is hunting the reserve at Waihi Beach riddle with Pheasants and Quail, but he is just going into new cover with no hot scent around him... oh yeah and this is steady to shot, not whistle. Doesn't do it as well now, hardly hears the shot

Originally Posted by Ruff

Jim, the long line works well on young dogs in the early stages but I have never known anyone I have shown the methodology too that did not break the golden rule of long lines and picked it up when the dog could see them. Renders them totally useless in the instant. they only serve a purpose if the line is stepped on. might do a video on it at some stage.

I only used it as you told me to at that time, in the early stages. Gave him a few stops with it by standing on the twine, and I found by number 3-4 he was convinced I had supernatural powers... he would turn around and see me giving him the stop signal hands empty and wonder what just happened! reliable sit at distance to the upper extent of his range (vizsla range mind you haha)

good info guys-i always hand held the cord.mind if im teaching quartering with whistle i still would hand hold a jerk the cord

Originally Posted by el borracho

good info guys-i always hand held the cord.mind if im teaching quartering with whistle i still would hand hold a jerk the cord

This will sound patronising but it's not intended to be, it's just the only way i know how explain the principle properly is start at the beginning.

Knowing a dog struggles to calculate.. i.e. it sees an empty piece of road, it sees a car 50 meters away heading in it's direction. It cannot calculate or rationalize that by the time it gets to the middle of the road the car will be there too. So it gets hit by a car. But, and here's bloody hoping, it survives and recovers. Having had the experience it now knows it exists, but it cannot "imagine" what might happen, it has to experience it.

How does that apply to the long line?

If your dog is wearing a long line it knows it has a long line on, it knows it is attached to a check chain, it knows it is dragging it. If you pick it up, it immediately experiences how you control it and it connects you to the rope and collar. The only real practical lesson in this is teaching it how long a piece of rope is. If you stand on it instead, it does not see how you do it and reacts in the way Pointer has described. So long as you won't overdo do it and proceed intelligently with similarly based methods the dog grows up believing you can reach out and touch it anywhere. You only have to disciplined enough not to show it you can't. In the beginning you have to change direction every time, and the split second the dog feels the rope come tight. In this way the dog relates having to watch your path of travel or risk a correction. and if you peep the turn whistle as you do it they learn to turn in few minutes. Just standing on it yourself and not moving will not communicate much, they need the body language to get it. Later when accustomed to this you can simply, as the dog powers away from you, give the pre-taught stop whistle and stand on the rope and bring the dog to a stop. when it stops and looks back at you hold up your pre-taught hand stop and re-blow the stop whistle letting him know he did the right thing. Let him wait a few seconds and then [I]do not call him in/[I] give a turn whistle and cast him off in the other direction. This puts him under no pressure so there no real negative with the stop. He continues on from the stop still having fun, still under your guidance. He is learning that fun, compliance and a lack of pressure come from happily following your requirements... of course be ready for the time the cocky alter ego turns up, but that's all part of the process. He will connect all the rest in a split second... careful guidance forward gives a great result. I never teach a dog to stop or go into a down while returning to me though, for several reasons... it's intimidating to the dog and carries high pressure with it. because of that it can, in some circumstances, be used as a correction. Because of this it's very easy to achieve. but lastly I can;t think of a single use for it in the real world.

Another point though To each their own but I wouldn't teach quartering on a rope personally. I'd personally go through the handling issues first, exactly like what is being discussed here until you have a really responsive turn whistle. Graduate the dog into hunting environments (Try to ease it into game, ideally the first couple of runs will be on barren ground.) and I'd walk out the pattern, then use the turn whistle and my body language to turn into the next cast etc.... The dog picks up on this very quickly, because at this stage it is a really fun game for the pup.

Well, what's an emergency stop? I'm guessing a "special" command it actually obeys????

I have to come back to this because I was being flippant when I addressed it.

There's no such thing as emergency stop. If trained well the dog should respect any command instantly and without question. What you are after is a STOP.

From what I see people get way to flowery with training at times, then they confuse themselves and of course the dog.
First thing you've got to do is decide what the hound actually needs to do.
Every dog, and I do mean EVERY DOG needs to know when to stop, so of course that should be real high on the list and be the most simple. Myself stop is via a single dropping whistle. If it's a fine breed that I'm happy to put the time into then there will be hand signals added as well.
Then they all need to come, that around here now is a single raising whistle. Of course these two need to be THEconsistent, no matter what may happen. For me they first get the stop one and a few seconds to take that in then the come signal rings out.
Then there is all the other shit you can add, yes I've added it to dog's but frankly if the fucking thing is any good it will be on auto pilot and will know that shit already even though you may not...