Thread: Dogs for pheasants, upcoming litters?

Yep. It's only logical to assume that when the HWV is a minority breed in europe, that when we take a small sample of that gene pool and bring it here that problems will arise. I understand the main breeder of HWV in NZ is big on health testing which is good. The breeder the above dog came from (SI) I don't think was doing it.

Health testing is a given but needs to be balanced with performance testing, work or some form of test format.
What stunts the growth of any breed is the lack of decent new blood, not just unrelated lines but proven performance lines.
The HWV is in that boat, from uk lines and limited to testing in the nzvhdta which means little as they will still get bred on even if they don't pass.

Breeding doesn't count for that much and in fact I think some of it is having a reverse effect. If you don't want the coat get a GSP but DON'T breed the coat out, this might be the one and only time I agree with the show standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Wirehaired_Pointer The dog top right looks like a GWP, if you've got to ask which these days you often do, then it's not a GWP.

Breeding, well hell I'll be generous and say has a 50% effect, the rest is training.

if you want the coat the only way to get it is with breeding, so in fact you contradict yourself in that post.
the coat won't get bred out, it will get better over time, but maybe not so much within the nz gwp gene pool, the DD is the future.

we got pups coming some with green papers and some the last of the nzkc lot.

Originally Posted by kawhia

if you want the coat the only way to get it is with breeding, so in fact you contradict yourself in that post.
the coat won't get bred out, it will get better over time, but maybe not so much within the nz gwp gene pool, the DD is the future.

we got pups coming some with green papers and some the last of the nzkc lot.

30 pups, right there.

Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Breeding doesn't count for that much...

Breeding, well hell I'll be generous and say has a 50% effect, the rest is training.

Hell, I'm nowhere as experienced as most in this discussion, but the more I get down the track the more I reckon it's all breeding. I know people who could train a dog to do anything bit if the dog ain't got it, it ain't got it

If that was the case I would have all pure breeds, I don't. Not to say the odd one isn't around though. However with pure breeds people won't bit the bullet and shoot the bastard if it's no good, they'll persist and train the guts out of it till their blue in the face and only ever have a marginal dog at best.

One line, actually more than one from here has a fantastic rate of gooduns but still the odd dud turns up. Show me any litter were every dog is a stunner, the best I've seen is one litter from here were eight of the pups are exceptional the remaining pup had some training issues, not the dogs but the young bird doing the training. Some of that litter went pig hunting and the rest are rabbiting.

I'm in the market for a GWP male pup with excellent proven hunting parents with strong pointing genes and biddable nature. NOT interested in spaniels or GSP's. Don't want a long legged gangly race-horse either.

120 years of unbroken working lines that ticks all those boxes......they are here just not called GWP.

Kawhia, what do you think about the future of the ordinary garden type NZKC GWP? Is there a place for a line from your former kennel (and others) to be back crossed and of course out crossed to keep the GWP line going? Are there any advantages to hunters in keeping the NZKC GWP going? What about disadvantages?

the nzkc GWP will be kept on by the show crowd and the unregistered undocked merino coated crossed with labs trade me type breeders.
the breed will always be found wanting in regards to new blood, without new blood it will flounder and head backwards, without out hunters or even decent show\working kennels doing the breeding and using some form of testing or even trial system it will also suffer, only takes a few bad matings to return to the bad old days of the gwp's reputation the inbreeding the gene pool is now going through will in time see it surface again.
the gwp has nothing to offer the DD, the NZKC and FCI standards differ in many area's, the main one being a simple working cert is required under the FCI system prior to breeding, the DD goes even further than this of course......under the NZKC you can breed what ever you like to anything and still get papers.
the advantages of the DD are the unlimited gene pool to breed from, a robust testing format and a min standard that must be met prior to breeding, this gives a breeder scope to modify the dogs to our own conditions in a short pace of time.

the only disadvantage is to the GWP as the use of DD's outside the vdd system is a big no no and breeders can now be fined and the dogs used taken out of the stud book, this includes the use of or selling frozen semen.
the rules have always been there but it has been upgraded by a request from the Americans.

It doesn't happen often but I concur 100% with Kawhia in this. As has happened with the spaniels the breeds will diverge so markedly as to be different breeds over time. The thing that will save the DD from the decimation of conformation breeding (Always a disaster) is the lack of a standard applied by the NZKC. Performance breeding with a strong eye to the important factors in conformation with relevance to performance will produce great dogs. Those working with mixes will always get good dogs, but they'll never get an exceptional dog, with the ease of handling of a pedigreed animal whose breeder has put in place, genetically, most of the work before you start. Well bred dogs have all the hunt, the style and the drive of others alongside ease of handling and training to a much higher degree than can be achieved with a mix. They are simply half the work for more result. Mixes will always work and some will be very very good, but they will, in my experience, always require more work to reach the standard required. Having said that, in taking on any dog for any task, if you have no time, knowledge or patience it doesn't matter what you get you will push the proverbial uphill. Getting a DD will get you a hunting machine, but you better be prepared to the work, even though it's less, if you don;t you'll just have a very flash unruly mutt.. The main reason many are gravitating toward sheep and cattle breeds for hunting is not for their hunting prowess, all dogs hunt, all dogs, but because they are very easy to train and handle. Getting a breed designed for a purpose that also has that quality of ease of handling will bring you out on top much more often. The show lines will always be hard headed and difficult to work with because no needs to breed biddability to ponce around a show ring.