Thread: Pheasant Dog

as far as ranging goes a dog can be made range at the distance you want if you teach it to turn short or long .A dog can also range short depending on cover even if it does range long in open ground .. it all in the training of you have the time and the different types of ground to train in

where are these held? can anyone go along for a look? live in Tpo and interested.

yes , generally spectators are allowed .If you would like to send me an email with your contact details

Spectators are very welcome to attend and folk can also walk behind the competitors with the judges. For the trials at Taupo, Please be aware the trial grounds are well into the property we have access to use (and a 4 wheel drive vehicle may be necessary). The triallists meet at 8 am for the draw and move off as a group onto the property. Dogs are welcome ON LEAD at all times unless competing and must have a current Dosing certificate or proof of purchase of Drontal for Sheep Measles. Please contact Allan Jury for details 07 8298 494 or 0272022124

Originally Posted by Tlane

I'm after a good dog - primarily for rough shooting pheasants, peacocks, ducks etc. I've gone round in circles trying to figure out what's the 'ideal' dog - covering Springers to Labradors, through GSPs and GWPs. Interested in your thoughts on the right breed and and suitable breeders...

We live in the country with two dogs (a heeler and heeler x huntaway - both great dogs). I work in town during the day, but my fiancee works outside all day and the dogs are with her during the day. I'm exercise the dogs in the mornings and evenings - often with our horses.

As I've started to get into my upland shooting, a dog with good hunt and retrieve drive has become necessary. I really enjoy watching good dogs work, and shooting over friends pointers. I've had conflicting views from owners of various breeds (Vizslas, GSPs, Labradors) about their respective merits - I'm tending away from the versatiles given the energy levels/intensity of training required. Is this a reasonable concern? Would a Springer or Lab be easier? Conscious that any dog is going to require considerable time and focus (and am in a position to give this).

So - over to you guys...

Cheers,
Tom

If you have the open country go for open/wide ranging dogs... Just my personal opinion: P&S dogs have a much more sensitive nose than springers/spaniels so you gain efficiency in covering more ground, and with scarcity of birds in NZ you need efficiency.

There are many things to consider but ultimately go with Quote "Whatever gives you a hard-on" Unquote....
If a dog pushing its speed limits and suddenly slams a handbrake and locks on point makes you blood boil then go with a Pointer or a Setter... just do your homework and pick a quality dog (not just any next available litter)...

Originally Posted by Petros_mk

just do your homework and pick a quality dog (not just any next available litter)...

100% learn about the lines within the breed ... all breeders are gonna tell yo there dogs are good, so ask around

Originally Posted by Petros_mk

If you have the open country go for open/wide ranging dogs... Just my personal opinion: P&S dogs have a much more sensitive nose than springers/spaniels so you gain efficiency in covering more ground, and with scarcity of birds in NZ you need efficiency.

Never had much of a reason to disagree with you Pete but that is total rubbish! Having dealt with a few thousand dogs, allowing that one is primarily an air scenter and the other a ground scenter, I wouldn;t be be prepared to make such a wide geralisation. I do not believe for one second P&S dogs have better or more sensitive noses than spaniels at all.

Originally Posted by EeeBees

I'm tending away from the versatiles given the energy levels/intensity of training required.

Not really correct. Good cockers and springers, in fact any good gundog is high intensity but well bred with bidibility does not mean they require high intensity training at all. Some of the hardest going, driven, spaniels I have seen have been total breezes to train due to the breeder paying as much attention to bidibility as everything else. You only come unstuck with poor breeders who breed drive (The easiest thing in the world to produce) but do so without bidibility, then you have a nightmare regardless of breed.

Originally Posted by TeRei

English Pointer beats everything hands down.

You mean a "Pointer" aye?

Originally Posted by Tlane

On a side note, just got back from the UK. Noticed that many of the versatiles over there seem a bit more sane than many of the same dogs you see in NZ. Is there an issue in NZ with concentration of lines, or is it more a reflection on the breeding?

Yep that has everything to do with breeding and having the right working blood available to work with. Good observation. Sadly the show crew have had a negative effect on many breeds here. But all of the breeds have excellent workers available if your due diligence is thorough.

I agree with Ebees that a good WORKING bred Labrador is your best bet for a first dog. WORKING does not mean someone took it hunting, it's mother hunting, or father and never took it to a show. It is a definate and in most cases separate strain of the breed which has had it's breeding focused solely on hunting traits for so many generations nothing else appears in the pedigree.

(BTW, I'm the one who sent you an e-mail yesterday, just so you know who you are talking to).

Originally Posted by B&Tan

Ever thought of a gordon setter, there will be a litter from working lines coming up around xmas. You are right, nothing beats watching a good setter/pointer working.

Cool, send me a private message or e-mail with details if you can. I have a client on the lookout for a working one at the moment.

Originally Posted by EeeBees

Tlane, personally I do not believe it is all about training...in fact in many instances, it almost sounds like a cliché...the dog has got to have prey drive first and foremost...his bloodlines give you that, not training...

I agree, you have to start with the goods, the best trainer can be psuhing "it" uphill with a poorly bred dog. Having said that, really well bred dogs can be a nightmare without training... the better the genetics often the bigger the train wreck if training is not up to par. Neither, in my opinion is exclusive of each other.

Originally Posted by Tlane

EeeBees - reading through similar posts on this site, there seems to be a view that versatiles are 'harder' dogs that are at the more extreme end when it comes to training. As performers, a pointer is my ideal dog - not much beats watching them work. But there's not much pleasure in watching a poorly trained dog, and even less in working with one (let alone owning it!). Realising that any dog is only going to be as good as the training it's given, I'm committed to giving it everything I've got. If I was hunting every day I wouldn't hesitate to go for a GWP, but wonder whether I'm better to go for a different breed that would be more forgiving?
?

To me, the dog must have prey drive, he must have passion, intent, boldness and will...you can train a dog as much as you like; I think there is too much emphasis on training than on hunting...if you want a good hunting dog take it hunting...as they mature they 'develop' as hunters just as we do...they can hold birds which they may not have done as a youngster. A hunted dog purposely seeks out places that he recognises as being possibly birdy...

What is a poorly trained dog...one man's idea of a poorly trained dog is invariably not another's. You can have all the fancy dropping, triple blind dummy retrieves and all that jazz but what of his real ability. Ever notice how you can bag a bird in a locale and your dog even three years later will return to that very spot the bird was pointed, flushed and retrieved. That is a hunting dog to me. A good hunting dog. Who through confidence in his owner is given licence to search without endless whistle blowing and stifling control.

Originally Posted by hamstring

And if u go for a versatile I recommend kawhias gwps

I agree with that. Martin Reid in Palmerston North is also producing some outstanding Draathars.

Originally Posted by EeeBees

You can have all the fancy dropping, triple blind dummy retrieves and all that jazz but what of his real ability. Ever notice how you can bag a bird in a locale and your dog even three years later will return to that very spot the bird was pointed, flushed and retrieved. That is a hunting dog to me. A good hunting dog. Who through confidence in his owner is given licence to search without endless whistle blowing and stifling control.

Open the wine Victoria, we are almost in agreement!

I disagree that one person's opinion of what constitutes a well trained dog is different to another. A well trained dog is well trained and there's no if's or buts about it. A well bred dog that performs well with little training is not well trained. It's well bred. I agree with your points about what can be bred and what can be trained but I have to challenge this "Ever notice how you can bag a bird in a locale and your dog even three years later will return to that very spot the bird was pointed, flushed and retrieved." That's not well bred, or even well trained. That's just a dog with a good memory!

But, going back to agreeing.... If you get a bidible, driven, intelligent dog that has, through experience learned to use it's nose to greatest effect, find and produce game for the gun which is also well trained, remains calm and under control at all times, the owner has, knowing they have great genetics, invested time into having a dog which hunts and remains with range, is steady to the flush and shot, retrieves efficiently and on command and is capable of multiple bird retrieves on land and or water then you have a champion to be envied. To have a mediocre dog highly trained is still only a well trained mediocre dog and the person who has the well bred hunting machine who has done little training usually owns a menace which costs game... they tend to hunt alone a lot.

I hear many breeders contend what you do and often, no disrespect, it is because they know their genetics and do not know much about handling, so they dismiss what they do not know.

Originally Posted by EeeBees

Who through confidence in his owner is given licence to search without endless whistle blowing and stifling control.

That is a badly trained dog. A good dog, highly trained, develops a lot more confidence and requires little handling by the handler. Constant whistle blowing is not the mark of the good trainer at all. Getting a response to every whistle only given when required is the mark of a good trainer/handler.
At the end of the day, if you have a passion for great gundog work, and the time you get a breed of the finest genetics you can locate and you train to the best of your ability and you will end up with a dog to be envied by almost everyone... the only doubters will be folks who have dogs of a similar standard and then you are just talking about obsessive's like me!