Thread: Time to submit against tail docking and dew claw removal ban (they never give in )

My blue heeler has her dewclaws and they are a right pain in the arse, she likes to wrap her legs around yours when she gives you a greeting hug it sometimes rips my skin. Luckily tho she hasn't yet damaged them herself. I didn't even think to take it up with the breeder when I first inspected the litter, maybe they were against it.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

but is your gsp like mine was wildman a tiger in every cover blackberry gorse boxthorn??
i would hated to see his tail after scrambling thru some of that crap if it had been long.
plus the old timers didnt do these things for fun or as an asthetic touch.
it was is done for the welfare of the breed in the job that they do.

I am passionate that historically docked breeds should remain so...there are many mamby pamby people out there who, by virtue of their lack of knowledge of the working dog, see it as some sort of mutilation...far from it, just as the points you guys have given...the Pointer for instance would not have historically been docked as he was a grouse/moors dog...not like the spaniels breeds, Epagneul Breton and the terriers etc...saw a Rottie at the show a few weeks ago who had a long tail ... he did not look right, at all...!!!!!!!! I laugh when I read that the shortening of the tail undermines the dogs communicative skills and balance...what a joke!!! There is no damage to the musculature in the rear end as some rabid ignorami attest...!!! Breeds such as the Smithfield (the real one!!), anoure (tailless or bobbed) Epagneul Breton, and others do just fine...

i note the powerful farm lobby is not included in this legislation.docking lambs is a far more painful operation than 2-5 day puppies. never mind cows. it is agenda driven not by concern for animal welfare. docking puppies/removing dewclaws, when done at the correct time under hygienic conditions causes little stress or discomfort.if this becomes law it will be difficult to respect because the mentality behind it, is stupid.

The farm lobby is also the reason the electric collar isn't included on the schedule but the prong collar is.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

but is your gsp like mine was wildman a tiger in every cover blackberry gorse boxthorn??
i would hated to see his tail after scrambling thru some of that crap if it had been long.
plus the old timers didnt do these things for fun or as an asthetic touch.
it was is done for the welfare of the breed in the job that they do.

Yep nothing stops him when he is on fresh scent. Was at the river on point next to a big wasp nest yesterday and when I noticed, I had to drag him away, covered in black and yellow germans, and chuck him in the river... He has a bit of a swollen ear this morning...

Anyway I'm no saying that it shouldn't be done, just that I have a dewclaw and long tail working dog, and have not seen the supposed ill effects of his non-conformity.

Actually the thing that does get hurt the most on him is his ears, they get the odd cut and bleed like all hell. Should I dock those?

Originally Posted by Mathias

My blue heeler has her dewclaws and they are a right pain in the arse, she likes to wrap her legs around yours when she gives you a greeting hug it sometimes rips my skin. Luckily tho she hasn't yet damaged them herself. I didn't even think to take it up with the breeder when I first inspected the litter, maybe they were against it.

Teach her not to jump up?

Made my submission. Keep the breed standards the way they are and let traditionally docked breeds remain that way.

Made my submission.

Don't be part of the silent majority (don't like but not likely to have a whinge), be part of the vocal minority, add your ten cents worth. :angry

Heres what I sent, its a bit long winded, (get a cupa tea and get comfy). If your interested in making a submission, feel free to plagiarise this below. PM me and ill forward by e-mail if you want.


Submission on Animal Welfare Regulations

19 April 2016.

I would like to make a private submission regarding the consultation document
Proposed Animal Welfare Regulations (Care & Conduct & Surgical & Painful Procedures)

In General.
Any legislation that is for the welfare of animals against cruelty or suffering can only be seen as a good idea. No responsible animal handler wants to see any of their animals under their charge or someone else’s charge suffer unnecessarily.
In general terms the proposals look to be reasonable and fair. I do however see some points that will cause some alarm to animal handlers throughout the country.
I do notice the organisations who have helped to propose the changes to the document are known for their bias, and I believe that by only including the NAWAC, RNZSPCA and the Vet Council, that it is possible that the proposals may be lacking some balance.
Some of the newly proposed legislations potentially turn simple procedures by suitable experienced people into procedures to be carried out by Vets or Vet trainees. Further to this it makes it possible for prosecution and in some instances criminal charges.
This will be adding further financial burdens to some of the handlers, and if they are prosecuted could potentially turn normally law abiding handlers into criminals.
For this reason I would like to see more direct input from other organisations and groups such as Federated Farmers and Breeders. It should be expected that people who have worked and cared for the various breeds with their extensive knowledge would more direct input on the sensibilities of some of these proposals. I also note that there are more issues that need to be worked through than has been highlighted in Blue in the document, which MPI may have over looked.

In Particular.
Although I have read the document I wish only to comment directly regarding Dogs, as I am a dog owner and enthusiast, and feel qualified only to speak about these proposed changes.

12.0 Surgical and Painful Procedures Regulatory Proposals.

61. Dogs – Dew Claws.
In the wording “Must only be performed for therapeutic reason” does not go far enough to cover the necessities of this procedure. Many Working, Hunting and Agility dogs suffer from having a due claw ripped off, partially torn away from the vigour’s of carrying out their work or duties.
It must be an option to have the Dew Claws removed at a young age if they are deemed by the breeder, owner or Vet to be at risk of causing injury to a dog latter in its life.
I have experienced this with a hunting dog climbing rocks in a creek and it was painful for the dog involved and stressful for the dog and myself. This can be sensibly avoided by the simple procedure.
It would be remiss to not allow this option.

62. Dogs – Tail Docking.
The existing regulations are suffice, but in the new proposal the wording “Must only be performed for therapeutic reason” does not go far enough to cover the necessities of this procedure. Some of the reasons that hunting and working dogs have this procedure done is for the long term welfare of the ends of their tails. NZ has particularly thick, and thorny areas these dogs work and they are prone to tearing the ends of the tails away. This injury never really heals up that well and once it happens they are prone to further injury when working.
The way the proposed changes are worded it reads that a dog owner must wait until his dog has an injured tail before the procedure can be done. For most dogs this would be from a year onwards, making it total unnecessary and involving a traumatic visit to the vet, not to mention another financial burden.
A hunting dog can at times become ineffectual if they are prone to wagging of the tail in cover which could alert or flush the object of the dog’s attention.
The breeds that have their tails docked have had them done so for many years and shown that the procedure does not affect the animal in later life, and are beneficial to the dog’s welfare and function. I believe that the breeds with docked tails should be able to continue to be so, and to let the breed retain the desired look.
MPI must seek more direct input from Dog breeders regarding the appearance of their breeds. Not enough emphasis has been allowed for breed appearance and function in this proposal.

It is interesting to note that you approve of Lambs having their tails docked, at a much older age than a dog and this is considered to be Ok, This is appears to be a double standard, if MPI are concerned about the pain caused by this procedure. Docking a dog’s tail when it is less than four days old would be far less traumatic than docking a lamb’s tail when it is six months or less.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment and place a submission on the proposed changes.

Sincerely,

Must include in your submission:
Name.
Contact details.

PDF and Email to:
Animal.welfaresubmissions@mpi.govt.nz

In Subject line include term:
Submission on Animal Welfare Regulations.

Or Post to:
Animal Welfare Policy
Minister for Primary Industries.
PO Box 2526
Wellington 6140.

Addressed to: Submission on Animal Welfare Regulations.

I have 2 breeds, one docked the other not, It doesn't bother me one way or the other , What I do think needs to be policed is the docking of puppies by back yard breeders, I see so many puppies ( Rottis in particular) on trade me or face book for sale and they have been docked by any old smuck with either a knife or pair of scissors when I ask about who docked the puppies I get all sorts of abuse and the " Oh we have docked like this for years", pups don't feel it and it doesn't hurt them they are all good straight after it is done. As the law stands right now, no registered pedigree dog can be docked by just anyone, you must be an accredited docker, if not done by an accredited docker you can't register the pups with the NZKC however it doesn't address all the unregistered litters born and docked at what ever age and by whoever. I think you will find that the normal working sheep dog will still have their dew claws removed and in fact you would not be able to tell looking at an adult dog whether it had dew claws as a baby or not.

Now I'd make a submission but I don't live in the country!
Can I?

Ducdog, you raise an interesting conundrum in that there are people who will dock puppy tails who are not members of the NZCDB...the audits and procedures for members of the NZCDB are, to say the least, stringent...those in the law making department of this country obviously have the condition where what you don't see, doesn't matter...out of sight, out of mind...interesting that Scotland are repealing the docking of working dogs...

With regard to neo-nat puppies being taken to veterinary clinics within three days (72hours) of birth for tail removal with the use of anesthesics is neither safe practise nor good husbandry in my view...and if the puppy dies as a result of the anesthesia what recompense is there to the breeder...

Originally Posted by Wildman

Yep nothing stops him when he is on fresh scent. Was at the river on point next to a big wasp nest yesterday and when I noticed, I had to drag him away, covered in black and yellow germans, and chuck him in the river... He has a bit of a swollen ear this morning...

Anyway I'm no saying that it shouldn't be done, just that I have a dewclaw and long tail working dog, and have not seen the supposed ill effects of his non-conformity.

Actually the thing that does get hurt the most on him is his ears, they get the odd cut and bleed like all hell. Should I dock those?

you.l only need to see a ripped out dew claw once wildman to want to make sure the risk of it is minimised[

i note the powerful farm lobby is not included in this legislation

if they were serious they,d of done something about the apalling treatment by some of bobby calves years ago.
which may get more wide spread as they become a bigger cost with buggerall return for more under pressure dairy operations.

What I do think needs to be policed is the docking of puppies by back yard breeders, I see so many puppies ( Rottis in particular) on trade me or face book for sale and they have been docked by any old smuck with either a knife or pair of scissors when I ask about who docked the puppies I get all sorts of abuse and the " Oh we have docked like this for years", pups don't feel it and it doesn't hurt them they are all good straight after it is done.

the point is all the rules in the world make f all difference if the will or ability to enforce them isnt there.rules will not stop the backyarders never have never will
there are quite strong rules now to deal with animal cruelty but if judges dont impose real penalties wheres the deterrent?
theres plenty of knee jerk rules made that mostly turn out to only penalise the law abiding but well thought out consultive rules worked thru by actual end users are practicly non existent.
the spca are to compromised to consult on cruelty and hunting/working dog matters because they hate both thinking making a dog do what it was breed for is a breach of its civil rights.
safe ??enough said thier christmas bash at little river was a eye opener to thier rediculous vegatables for all mania.
leave all animals free wild and with a unfettered lack of control on them.
they,d be the first to moan if stock got killed wandering where it shouldnt but ofcourse we shouldnt be farming in the first place
i had a bit of sympathy for many of thier positions on factory farming still do but old hans im afraid is batshit crazy in his hippie, sandal, sweater, world.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

the point is all the rules in the world make f all difference if the will or ability to enforce them isnt there.rules will not stop the backyarders never have never will
there are quite strong rules now to deal with animal cruelty but if judges dont impose real penalties wheres the deterrent?
theres plenty of knee jerk rules made that mostly turn out to only penalise the law abiding but well thought out consultive rules worked thru by actual end users are practicly non existent.
the spca are to compromised to consult on cruelty and hunting/working dog matters because they hate both thinking making a dog do what it was breed for is a breach of its civil rights.
safe ??enough said thier christmas bash at little river was a eye opener to thier rediculous vegatables for all mania.
leave all animals free wild and with a unfettered lack of control on them.
they,d be the first to moan if stock got killed wandering where it shouldnt but ofcourse we shouldnt be farming in the first place
i had a bit of sympathy for many of thier positions on factory farming still do but old hans im afraid is batshit crazy in his hippie, sandal, sweater, world.

Yes you are right, all the rules in the world mean nothing if they aren't enforced, don't even get me started on SAFE, animal rights my arse ! If they were so concerned about animals suffering they would have done something then and there about the calves on the side of the road and being abused at the pet food factory, OH no they waited months to release the footage and then their advertisement in the UK papers, that wasn't to help animals it was to discredit the dairy industry, Yip Old Hans needs to go back to where he came from and sort out that countries animal welfare............. OH dear didn't I say don't get me started on SAFE.

take a look at st hans country the nederlands if im not mistaken.
a] no hunting virtually
b]dope cafe,s
c]bikies warring with rpg,s in the streets

Yes you are right, all the rules in the world mean nothing if they aren't enforced, don't even get me started on SAFE, animal rights my arse

i agree i couldnt leave a suffering animal for 5 minutes let alone 5 months i wonder if the animals are secondary to him and his ilk ??
forcing thier rose tinted vision of the world on the rest of us is more his bent and i bet he relishes the persecuted martyr position he,s in.
nothing recruits like minded types with thier money than to see one of thier own doing something half right and lambasted for it.
lets be honest there are farming practises that belong in the past that still go on but unless we are all prepared to pay more and ignore the cheaper imported pork and not buy battery eggs there fore removing the price advantage of these farming practises they will persist.
anyway sorry eebees for getting off the point but the half truth of these wankers arguements is what gets them heard on issues like this[dog matters] which they have no clue or experience of.