Thread: What do I do?

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

Sorry, I was of the idea that she was an outcross to Brick. You also must consider that it's possible that she doesn't throw the stuff. From my three best bitches, the best doesn't produce. She had two litters and nothing came from her. Sometimes very good bitches don't produce. Why ?????? But than we have to try something else.

I agree, I have no doubt Cheyenne has the right bloodlines to produce with the right sire... It's just one of my guiding principles I won;t closer than grandparants... I understand why others do, but a lot of issues won;t take me there....

Originally Posted by Pointer

Did Jim Clarke breed on paper alone?




A Brick son over a Brick grand daughter will only give you a 6.25% COI if my maths is correct, that's very minor.

Jim never really bred on paper at all, he just had limits he used to ensure genetic integrity... and succeed to produce a line that has, as far as I am aware not a single genetic fault in ages....

Jim, I can;t understand you logic... Jim not breeding on paper... then a COI worked out on paper? come one man!!!

The COI means nothing to me... the reality does. I will NOT go closet than grandparants. but I am forming a plan, and there'll be a world of commonality... but it will safe and won;t produce fucked up hips, lips eyes and arseholes

Originally Posted by mucko

what are the chances that breeding using hybrid vigour that any that throw back to the spaniel would be more like brick. it wouldn't matter what sire you use because your after the throw back. there would of coarse be a percentage of cross breed.

A cross breed, while often a useful hunter really represents no value to me at all... primarily because my focus is improving dogs... crossing will produce one generation with hybrid vigour and no where to go... another dead end... of no use at all in the wider scheme of things. that aside...

Originally Posted by Tahr

That suggestion should get Ruff barking mad, if nothing does. And sometimes nothing does.

No it's always something... sometimes people just don;t know enough to know what it is!

Originally Posted by Ruff

Jim, I can;t understand you logic... Jim not breeding on paper... then a COI worked out on paper? come one man!!!

The COI means nothing to me... the reality does. I will NOT go closet than grandparants. but I am forming a plan, and there'll be a world of commonality... but it will safe and won;t produce fucked up hips, lips eyes and arseholes

The paper talk was in reference to this bitch you talk of. I don't know her, but even though she has a great pedigree, you seem disappointed with her with your recent comments. Its all pie in the sky. The dog is more important than the pedigree...

As for the COI comment, if the pup was to have a common grandparent in brick as you suggested, they would have a higher COI% than what Hales Smut suggested... Thats where I was going with this. Not having a stab, just not getting where you are coming from.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

Indeed it's Dr Guberti that I speak about. I didn't knew his fame comes down that much south.

No mate it probably hasn't I clearly need another hobby. Is fame the right word for Guberti? Infamy if you believe the do-gooders these days!

I feel he is one of the greats, he achieved more than Whele ever did. I find him a fascinating story

Originally Posted by Pointer

The paper talk was in reference to this bitch you talk of. I don't know her, but even though she has a great pedigree, you seem disappointed with her with your recent comments. Its all pie in the sky. The dog is more important than the pedigree...

As for the COI comment, if the pup was to have a common grandparent in brick as you suggested, they would have a higher COI% than what Hales Smut suggested... Thats where I was going with this. Not having a stab, just not getting where you are coming from.

To put that in perspective... The bitch has every quality i would want in a dog... except she's soft... I can put that back with the right sire and produce all of her qualities with a better workable temperament.... if she was weak in any other area i wouldn't consider it. I will breed a litter and run them on, other than those I would trust to go with certain handlers.... what I run on will have the qualities I was attempting to produce or, sorry if this offends anyone, they will be removed from the gene pool. It's a tough call, but I am a devotee of Jim Clarke's methods and regimented culling of what didn;t meet the standard, once run on, is part of it I just have to suck up and deal with. If I am big enough to be critical of people who I believe inflict inferior stock on other people, I have to have the balls to be certain I will not do that myself.

The COI is my point about paper.. if a half brother/half sister mating has a lower COI than a commonality of grandparants, then I think common sense suggests it shows the fagilioty of the COI system... this is genetics, not mathematics... I still believe in good old fashioned stock-manship over computer formulas.

If it was old-fashioned stockmanship you wouldn't breed from an inferior specimen. However if you had to, you would cull rigorously on its progeny.

Half Sibling mating is one common grandparent... 12.5% - still not large but as big as most would go, including Jim Clarke as you say.

If it was a case of simple mathematics (which it never is) you would put Brick to his daughter! However then you are breeding on Bricks parents and not brick himself.

Please consider my musings as harmless. I'm not out to pick fights, just putting it out there. If you want another brick, you have to inbreed on him

Originally Posted by Pointer

If it was old-fashioned stockmanship you wouldn't breed from an inferior specimen. However if you had to, you would cull rigorously on its progeny.

Half Sibling mating is one common grandparent... 12.5% - still not large but as big as most would go, including Jim Clarke as you say.

If it was a case of simple mathematics (which it never is) you would put Brick to his daughter! However then you are breeding on Bricks parents and not brick himself.

Please consider my musings as harmless. I'm not out to pick fights, just putting it out there. If you want another brick, you have to inbreed on him

I never have an issue with your posts Jim, I know your intent in good and you are all about better dogs, we have that in common... , the ones that get my back up are where i see agendas.... not for the good of dogs.

Maybe i need to explain a bit deeper.... I don;t think Cheyenne is inferior at all... perhaps the standard i set gives that impression, I guarantee i could sell her as a started dog tomorrow for $5000 but there is a flaw in her nature which stops her being great. Potentially it won't, I think I can train past it, I'll even boldly claim I reckon I'll put a title on her over the next two or three seasons.... BUT knowing the weakness in what i am breeding, I need to compensate for that... Brick is not a dog I would use over a hard bitch, he's enough of a handful, so genetically amplifying that wouldn't make sense... it'd most likely result in "too much dog" to be useful... that doesn't mean he's flawed, just has to be bred with consideration... likewise with Cheyenne, she's not flawed, but I will put to her what i think will compensate for what weaknesses she has... it's not all about breeding hardest and fasted to hardest and fastest or we'd soon have dogs we'd let out and never see again. In Brick's case, most of the bitches I accepted for him were soft, and he produced beautiful temperaments.. FCH Keepersmoor Bracken Ridge is a prime example and his son "FCH Tussock" (Can't remember his proper name)... Cheyenne would have, I am certain, done exactly the same mated with him and produced exactly the type of dog i want to handle, tons of balls, guts, drive, nose, biddibility... that will never happen now, well highly unlikely, and i may be wrong, but hence my angst it hasn't happened... now i will go to his son... the issue there is that a son will only bring 25% of brick to the equation... so it may be culling is required... yes, I can raise the percentage with a brother sister mating, but that then stands to bring genetic issues which need to be culled anyway and I don;t see i have strengthened anything and am still culling, so I'll follow my gut and go with the son and hope it works... At the end of the day, and with several days to think about it.... Cheyenne is my best brood bitch on offer (Did I mention she and brick share grandparents, I'm sure id id, she's 50% Ballyblack... but focus must be to Brick because that is where I want to go.... I think the son which looks like him, and hunts like him is the go... added the dog is the same coloration. I have no scientific proof of this but experience tells me dogs carry genes in packets... a dog with one fault, genetically, has more.... a son of brick with his drive, nature, ability and coloration is likely to carry more of his Dad than say "FCH Keepersmoor bracken Ridge" who is liver and white... about to have a conversation about acquiring a pup which is a brick granddaughter and whose mother was sired by brick's brother... wish me luck

Originally Posted by Ruff

... about to have a conversation about acquiring a pup which is a brick granddaughter and whose mother was sired by brick's brother... wish me luck

Now were talking! buy all the bitches in the litter and put Bricks two FCH sons to the best of them!

Originally Posted by Pointer

Now were talking! buy all the bitches in the litter and put Bricks two FCH sons to the best of them!

Pretty much what i was thinking....

Looks like that bitch is gone, but another one of brick granddaughters might be available (Until I talk to some folks I forget how much action the old bastard has had ) Having said that, I now have contacts with four of his granddaughters and am talking to all about breeding plans for the future....

WTF have I started... anyone want a brick Great Grand Daughter??? Looks like there'll be shitloads LOL

Fuck yeah, bring it on! Only way to make progress. Best of luck!

Pointer, he will then have to keep ALL the puppies until they are at least 18 months, like the ilk of Mike Gaddis does with his setters in the US...

Originally Posted by EeeBees

Pointer, he will then have to keep ALL the puppies until they are at least 18 months, like the ilk of Mike Gaddis does with his setters in the US...

No I'll cull before that age.

I was going to say, you would hope a few shone though before 18 months!