Thread: I must be getting old and cynical

Sure. I have only seen four examples of the particular breed in question so not a huge sample but considering they are all from the same source it counts for something. One didn't retrieve, the other had little point and one had health issues.

Your turn now, "define a well bred litter bred on lifting the bar" as everyone uses that line

i was asking more of a general opinion not just this particular breed, as i was thinking shit the wastage or average on pointers must be pretty high and low to come at that comment.
{i know it isn't}
i cant comment of the state of the breed in question, other than they were one of the highest to attend the nzvhdta testing back when i was involved in it and they did set the bar for everyone else at the time.....{although i think my own kennel produced a higher average}
its easy to write off certain breeds and kennels as a no go area, based on personal experience, we all do it.
to answer your question you need a format to gauge where the working ability sits, be it actually working, field trials or a testing system, it's not hard to see dogs who do well in the field also clean up in the off season in one or the other and those that don't...........it's up to the breeders to set the bar, breeding for better than average should be the end game, the chances of getting that dog of a life time are that much greater.

I wouldnt say I have written them off, the fourth one I saw was very good bordering on excellent, on the two times I hunted with him, once on deer and once on upland. I very seriously considered one after his performance.

I agree on importing and health testing not being a valid excuse. By our geographical essence importing is a necessity, can't avoid it. As for health testing, if you brave enough to breed a breed of dogs riddled with health problems then you better be prepared to wear it. So if import price or parents or health testing isn't a valid excuse for high pricing, according to other members here, then the say so that the dogs in the pedigree are excellent is? On that subject would you pay more for say, a person who has one litter loosely bred on a famous dog or some one who has been in their line of for decades consistently producing a type of dog?

There is a dog in my kennel, who came from a breeder who has been in that line of dogs since the early 80s. His pedigree wouldn't look put of place on a UK grouse moor, and is loosely line bred on greats of the breed both here in NZ and UK. This dog cost $900, and the breeder has a waiting list arms length long because they only breed for their own replacements.
He is true to his breeding, his performance is typical of his family.

The second dog I'll mention is no longer with me, he is someone's running partner in Melbourne in his old age. I paid twice the above amount for this dog, on the say so that his European ancestors were all fantastic and highly awarded in tests. This dog turned out no better, and in some places worse, than the previous examples I had owned in the breed. I had fallen for the hype. Hence I am wary of spin doctors.

I visited a breeder once, who had been in his line 6-7 generations both sides, that was consistently producing dogs that excelled in their intended use, in fact he had two sisters that year place first and third in the national championship on quail in Aussie. Without knowing the guy at all, when he took me out to his kennels to view his dogs he started with "I'll tell you what I don't like about my dogs" he demonstrated honesty about his line from the start, detailing both performance and health issues he wants to correct. The good points of his kennel spoke for themselves. I spent a afternoon behind those sisters and their immediate family on quail that left me grinning from ear to ear. Everything he told me about them they demonstrated. This is a man of integrity, an honest man who I would buy a dog from any day and would pay a premium to do so yet he asked a modest price per dog.

As for my spin doctor mate? Not breeding anymore. Ripped too many off!

Anyway I'm way off track. I'll ask an open question to all, would anyone buy a dog on pedigree alone?

Was it the wire haired vizsla ?

No but thats a good point. That thing was overall better than my smooth haired vizsla, bred by someone who had no clue!

I've deliberately left breeds and breeders names out of this thread as it isn't a name and shame session, those details arent important. I'm more interested in the reasoning behind the price rises in gundog puppies. The feedback had been interesting so far.

The rise has hardly been a sudden occurrence, it didn't happen overnight.

Originally Posted by kawhia

The rise has hardly been a sudden occurrence, it didn't happen overnight.

Ummm it actually did with you mate... as soon as you changed marketing strategies.

Where do you see it ending? Driving people away from pedigree dogs?

Originally Posted by gsp follower

im tearing up at the memory of jimmy hay telling doug [the alsatian]not to worry bout the mongrel wairarapa romneys at alfredton dog trials between them they,d educate them.

Off topic, but I used to compete and liberate at Alfredton, Great times. Remember Jim very well. Neil Harvey was another hard case who I used to travel with. Neil was quite bandy, and at the short head pen once he was stretched out at the gate and a sheep broke, and shot straight between his legs Another time at Pongaroa there was a swede crop close to the start at the short head, and as Neil walked out to compete he pulled a swede and biffed it in the pen as he walked past.

Carry on chaps.

Originally Posted by Pointer

Where do you see it ending? Driving people away from pedigree dogs?

I think the NZKC and the imploding of the NZGTA will see that, it will balance out in regards to our working dogs.
Yes the price has jumped up and will likely stay where they are now, they are pretty much at the same level as the buying in the Uk and Europe with the exchange rate etc, if we have moved away from inbred non performing and non working examples of any breed then I call that progress not greed....I don't buy the tiny group of Islands at the bottom of the world excuse.

Originally Posted by Ruff

Far more useful to analyse how breeders created those issues. Learn from that and don;t do it again rather than institute a bogus testing regime that keeps Vets driving Audi's. HD for instance, tested for years. no change in the incidence, no change in which dogs produce it, but the bullshit "We test" hoodwinks the public to keep the money flowing to the vets and breeders.

OK I'll bite
Aside from not driving an Audi : the VD hip xrays examined by a panel of experts used for screening for HD for years was the best tool we had even though I agree it has not been shown to make a big difference (shown by scientidic method the same way the scheme was devised in the first instance). Penn hip certainly appears more promising for now.
Money wise, Ive worked in a bunch of practices here and in Aussie, I can think of one or two which might have made decent profit on HD xrays mostly its actually fairly cost neutral or even a loss, after anaesthetic, positioning repeat xray with 2 people and paper work its not a big money spinner - you could spey a few bitches, sew up a few pig dogs or do a simple orthopaedic procedure in the same time. Yes its all money and nobody is made of it for sure.
Penn hip also costs $$ itwas blardy expensive to train for and buy the gear for initially being a copyright procedure which also had to be passed on. Costs for Penn training and gear are now coming down, happily.
Anyways Im never going to win a vet argument with the internet on charging but be aware what you perceive as a waste of a lot of money is not done for fun at the other end either!
Dont get me started on charging for dogs being exported....

So if you don't buy it, what's the excuse for paying European prices here?

If you buy a pup with the purchase price as the deciding factor, and let's face it we all have different budgets and needs then that is all good in my book, they all cost the same to feed and register year in year out.

For the breed concerned they have been selling at the high since they got here, if they were priced wrong they simply wouldn't sell.

Originally Posted by ethos

Dont get me started on charging for dogs being exported....

Don't get me started on that topic as well

Originally Posted by kawhia

If you buy a pup with the purchase price as the deciding factor, and let's face it we all have different budgets and needs then that is all good in my book, they all cost the same to feed and register year in year out.

For the breed concerned they have been selling at the high since they got here, if they were priced wrong they simply wouldn't sell.

Yoy didnt really answer the question, but what you wrote is parallel to Ruff's "my mate charged $1500 so mine must be worth $2000"

Greed, nothing more.