Thread: Korthals Griffon

I found yesterday a pair of Korthals Griffons did come to NZ over a decade ago but they did not breed well.
Still looking around.

Same characteristics as GWP but a bit smaller and stocky. None found so far.

Originally Posted by Woody

I found yesterday a pair of Korthals Griffons did come to NZ over a decade ago but they did not breed well.
Still looking around.

Haven't you answered your own question @Woody "but they did not breed well, (because they were not genetically adapted to NZ conditions)" What is the point in trying to prove it can be done when better adapted dogs are here already? I personally know from breeding exotics.
Attached a photo of a Wap Bull I am growing out this year, 25% Fiordland genes. 100 years of wild adaptation makes a big difference to hardiness and environmental fitness compared with purebred Canadian imports The original strains of Lab were far superior to the later English imports, but over time the English have been culled and the rubbish bred out so that most Labs are now good again. Ridgebacks would be an example of a new breed that was initially very popular when every pig hunter had to get one, then fell from favour for brainlessness to where you hardly see them now, but the ones that we do see are the result of 20+ years of selective breeding and are quite good. I like hunting dogs crossed with well adapted working strains like heading dogs. Working dogs ( Border collie, heading dog types) have been here 100 years plus and crossing them with hunting breeds is very successful. The best pig and deer dogs are nearly always heading dogs or their crosses. Heading / corralling stock is just a modified hunting behaviour anyway where the dog wants us to kill the sheep.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Haven't you answered your own question @Woody "but they did not breed well, because they were not genetically adapted to NZ conditions" What is the point in trying to prove it can be done when better adapted dogs are here already? I personally know from breeding exotics.
Attached a photo of a Wap Bull I am growing out this year, 25% Fiordland genes. 100 years of wild adaptation makes a big difference to hardiness and environmental fitness compared with purebred Canadian importsAttachment 127302

Thats a big lump of a spiker too. What % Wap is he?

@Moa Hunter. Very nice pic.
On Korthals, I was merely making an enquiry as to their status in NZ at present time; not trying to advocate.
Nothing wrong with some of the good wirehairs around but I an kind of fond of the concept of a similar breed still with more of the old griffon type. Just a dream really.
I have some possibilities on the enquiry excercise at present.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Thats a big lump of a spiker too. What % Wap is he?

The spiker would be around 90 % pure Wapiti. The bull would be around 80%. The spiker has had his spikes cut poor bastard

Originally Posted by Woody

@Moa Hunter. Very nice pic.
On Korthals, I was merely making an enquiry as to their status in NZ at present time; not trying to advocate.
Nothing wrong with some of the good wirehairs around but I an kind of fond of the concept of a similar breed still with more of the old griffon type. Just a dream really.
I have some possibilities on the enquiry excercise at present.

i tend to think the longhaired types have more to offer, longhaired pointers and the small and large munsters, like anything getting from the right stock in the first place is half the job done.
if anything an increase in pointers and setters would be nice too

Originally Posted by berg243

would love to get another large munsterlander or even try a small one. if anyone knows of any let me know please.

https://www.dogzonline.co.nz/breeds/...sterlander.asp

Am reading this thread with interest. Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to dogs (among other things) and there does seem to be a definite preference for a pedigree over a cross with many people. I am with Moa though for myself and really like the working dog crosses. Sure, strong eyes can be a bit nutty but the right calm, plainer eyed one and the right cross they seem to go really well. Most of the purebreds and especially with the versatiles seem too highly strung for my liking or they take most of their life to calm down. Or they feel the cold too much etc etc. The other thing I seem to see is people hearing of the odd one that was amazing and then spend their lives trying to find one of that breed like that. For me if I was looking for a purebred whatever for hunting, I would spend a long, long time researching the absolute best line and then interview people who have that line and watch the dogs in action. Then I would spend any amount of money to get one. I am really interested in what people think for a pedigree indicating dog that is calm, biddable, easy to read and good in the cold. I keep punching those requirements in (which I think most people are after) and I keep coming up with a good smaller lab or a heading dog. There is no doubt that proper training and plenty of work also make a huge difference. And sometimes you just like a certain breed for no other reason than you like it. And that is more than half the fun too I think. And Tahr, you should definitely get another dog after Tilly, as hard as that is to think about. You have at least another 15 years hunting in you mate

+1 on that Hiawatha. If anyone is interested in mating a Bitch I know where there is a Lab dog (as in male) that leaves outstanding pups. This dog ( Clay) is 10 yrs old, can still jump onto the back of a Hilux with ease, run down a rabbit etc but more importantly leaves improvement in any pups. The dog is on the outskirts of rural ChCh. Clay has been mated a couple of time to a Border Collie and the pups are determined and smart hunters.

Originally Posted by berg243

i think it is more that with a pedigree you can follow it back to see how the line has performed in the past to give a good indication on future performance. when paying a couple thousand for a pup you want some sort of record to justify that outlay and with a cross that people want nearly the same amount there is no record just word of mouth that someone had a good pup. in saying that one of the best labs i had cost me $20 had 1/8 gsp in the litter and was great but now people want $800 for similar . the munsterlander i am looking at is $1900 for a pup thanks to @Thar it will have papers and if i wanted i could follow the line back to first registration to check on its potential , it still will be influenced by training and you can still get a dud but a lot less variables than a cross breed.

The first cross of two distinct breeds ( Filial 1 hybrid ) is always uniform and consistent. It is crosses of the crosses that are variable. In dogs a common example would be crossing greyhounds with border collies to produce F1 Lurchers.

Originally Posted by berg243

i think it is more that with a pedigree you can follow it back to see how the line has performed in the past to give a good indication on future performance. when paying a couple thousand for a pup you want some sort of record to justify that outlay and with a cross that people want nearly the same amount there is no record just word of mouth that someone had a good pup. in saying that one of the best labs i had cost me $20 had 1/8 gsp in the litter and was great but now people want $800 for similar . the munsterlander i am looking at is $1900 for a pup thanks to @Thar it will have papers and if i wanted i could follow the line back to first registration to check on its potential , it still will be influenced by training and you can still get a dud but a lot less variables than a cross breed.

your musterlander will not come from working stock, there are no breeders breeding from tested german or even english bred field lines.
i have been asked to source german bred dogs for a couple of guys wanting to invest in the breed, i get the same questions from the germans about dog shows and non hunting homes for there lines, there was a time a reintroduction of the breed could have worked but not while they keep getting topped up by australian show lines and frozen semen from uk show kennels.

Originally Posted by kawhia

your musterlander will not come from working stock, there are no breeders breeding from tested german or even english bred field lines.
i have been asked to source german bred dogs for a couple of guys wanting to invest in the breed, i get the same questions from the germans about dog shows and non hunting homes for there lines, there was a time a reintroduction of the breed could have worked but not while they keep getting topped up by australian show lines and frozen semen from uk show kennels.

Yeah, but it depends on your expectations and what you want. The pup I got from you Kawhia pre your DD bloodlines was not tested German blood lines but certainly has met my expectations and has been probably "good enough" by any ordinary person's expectations (and I knew what I was getting and was very happy about the whole thing). A bonus was that both parents hunted well. Sure, lots of hunting has brought out what ever potential existed in her blood lines but I have been thoroughly happy (and so has she ). I see no reason why the NZ Large Munsterlanders from Aus semen should not be the same - good enough for the ordinary hunter person. Same with the Feskes'.

My girl is a bit like what you describe too Tahr. Except she is a cross breed from proven parents (mother is cross bred too) who threw consistent pups. Like you I am really happy. I think if you have a dog with brains, temperament and enough hunt drive for what you want then add training and plenty hunting and everyone should be happy.

Originally Posted by Tahr

Yeah, but it depends on your expectations and what you want. The pup I got from you Kawhia pre your DD bloodlines was not tested German blood lines but certainly has met my expectations and has been probably "good enough" by any ordinary person's expectations (and I knew what I was getting and was very happy about the whole thing). A bonus was that both parents hunted well. Sure, lots of hunting has brought out what ever potential existed in her blood lines but I have been thoroughly happy (and so has she ). I see no reason why the NZ Large Munsterlanders from Aus semen should not be the same - good enough for the ordinary hunter person. Same with the Feskes'.

Is it possible to bring in semen from a proven dog ? If it is, pups from a totally different unrelated line especially if it is a 'line bred' line will give a heterosis effect in the same way as crossing to a different breed. Meaning consistently good pups in the litter