Thread: Are Labradors good at finding Large Game?

re genetic issues my more recent experience is only with setter breeders. all the genuine breeders both show and field do a lot of work around trying to keep introducing fresh bloodlines, testing for eye and hip disorders and not using any animal that has siblings with issues both genetic or behavioral.
then you get into the whole show vs field dogs. Some rare breeders have dogs that do both.
As others say do your home work around a breeder. talk with them, go and watch their dogs work. talk with other owners from previous litters.
Zq
ie. people in it for love not money!

Look at how many heading and huntaways make it. Yes it all comes down to whos training them, some preform from a early age, some take a bit longer. Some need a soft hand and others you need to be on top of them all day.
Some dogs have natural ability, some don't and are killed of by lead poison.
My first dog was a collie x gsp. Great family dog, good manners and didn't care about gun fire but winge you have no idea, put up with it for ages ended up rehoming it to a family. Its not to i look back at a couple videos i think how the hell did i put up with that.

Originally Posted by ZQLewis

re genetic issues my more recent experience is only with setter breeders. all the genuine breeders both show and field do a lot of work around trying to keep introducing fresh bloodlines, testing for eye and hip disorders and not using any animal that has siblings with issues both genetic or behavioral.
then you get into the whole show vs field dogs. Some rare breeders have dogs that do both.
As others say do your home work around a breeder. talk with them, go and watch their dogs work. talk with other owners from previous litters.
Zq
ie. people in it for love not money!

You can count those types of breeders in gundog circles here with two hands, and have a few spare fingers and that’s for all the breeds combined.
We have a leave it up to someone else culture as far as new genetics go, made worse by the misconception x breeds and badly breed full breeds are as good at a lot less the price.... that for both performance and health issues where it is a concern.
New blood is awesome but it needs to be part of a bigger picture, not every pup is worth breeding from just because one side is imported.

This age old debate , I've spent some time in the bar at dog trail clubs listening to the so called experts trying to thrash this out, even seen it end up in fisty cuffs!!.My 2 cents I think the lab is a great allround dog have seen some cracker duck dogs. the three labs I have deer hunted with were like bulldozers in the bush and really heavy breathing/panting,bloody noisy .My first deer dog was a lab x heading dog bit finer boned than a lab. she was an awesome deer dog and pet couldn't get her to pull ducks.Had a GWP next, head strong scatter brain bullet bait !! Now have a Visla she is a cracker really trainable steady deer dog,good pet but tends to stick to me.I now a few cullers they swear by heading dog lines . This is just my experience and may not off helped . Good luck.

You need a line bred, genetically stabilized dog owner. You will hear a lot of talk but without a pedigree, the dog has no idea what it will be getting.

Originally Posted by Rangidan

This age old debate , I've spent some time in the bar at dog trail clubs listening to the so called experts trying to thrash this out, even seen it end up in fisty cuffs!!.My 2 cents I think the lab is a great allround dog have seen some cracker duck dogs. the three labs I have deer hunted with were like bulldozers in the bush and really heavy breathing/panting,bloody noisy .My first deer dog was a lab x heading dog bit finer boned than a lab. she was an awesome deer dog and pet couldn't get her to pull ducks.Had a GWP next, head strong scatter brain bullet bait !! Now have a Visla she is a cracker really trainable steady deer dog,good pet but tends to stick to me.I now a few cullers they swear by heading dog lines . This is just my experience and may not off helped . Good luck.

I agree with rangidan,the heading dog or heading cross are very trainable for indicating,also won't need a small mortgage to feed haha.they have excellent ability to get around in the bush to.defiantly worth considering this breed I believe,also maybe a cheaper option.once again just my experience and opinion.

Originally Posted by stagstalker

@Flyblown The idea that cross breeds are the magic cure to health problems is a myth. If you cross a labrador with genetic hip dysplasia with a pointer that has a genetic eye condition then the crossbred pups will inherit those genetic issues.. It’s about doing your homework before you purchase a pup or dog and obtaining medical proof that the parents are healthy and issue free. Dogs with health issues are a case of breeding poor genetics as opposed to a purebred vs crossbred argument.

I will disagree with this stagstalker. Crossbreeding of two unrelated pure breeds masks or hides genetic faults, and inbreeding / linebreeding brings these to the surface. The crossbred animal will inherit the faults but those genetic faults will not be visible. It is only when the fault carrying animal is back crossed with another animal carrying the same fault that it will possibly make its appearance once more . Crossbreds are more vigorous, healthy, fertile and have longer lives than the parent breeds from which they are derived, this is on average measured at 16% in the first or F1 cross.
Genetic progress in breeding is best made with pure breeds. It is possible to use cross breeds to form new breeds but needs a lot of resources.
In summary, the parents of pure breds need to be totally 'sound' and free of genetic faults ( not just physically tested to not have the fault because they can still carry it ), whereas for a utility dog that won't be bred from a crossbred is a better bet if the genetic soundness of the parents isn't tested and proven.

If anyone is interested, I know where there is a Lab male that leaves exceptional pups. He totally 'stamps' his litters and every pup is brilliant and improved. Pm me and I can put you in contact with the owner.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I will disagree with this stagstalker. Crossbreeding of two unrelated pure breeds masks or hides genetic faults, and inbreeding / linebreeding brings these to the surface. The crossbred animal will inherit the faults but those genetic faults will not be visible. It is only when the fault carrying animal is back crossed with another animal carrying the same fault that it will possibly make its appearance once more . Crossbreds are more vigorous, healthy, fertile and have longer lives than the parent breeds from which they are derived, this is on average measured at 16% in the first or F1 cross.
Genetic progress in breeding is best made with pure breeds. It is possible to use cross breeds to form new breeds but needs a lot of resources.
In summary, the parents of pure breds need to be totally 'sound' and free of genetic faults ( not just physically tested to not have the fault because they can still carry it ), whereas for a utility dog that won't be bred from a crossbred is a better bet if the genetic soundness of the parents isn't tested and proven.

If anyone is interested, I know where there is a Lab male that leaves exceptional pups. He totally 'stamps' his litters and every pup is brilliant and improved. Pm me and I can put you in contact with the owner.

You make some good points. It still identifies however that cross breeding is not a magic cure. The issues still remain and they are still being bred forward into the next generation. Crossbred or purebred, the responsibility for health checks and responsible breeding remains the same.

Originally Posted by stagstalker

You make some good points. It still identifies however that cross breeding is not a magic cure. The issues still remain and they are still being bred forward into the next generation. Crossbred or purebred, the responsibility for health checks and responsible breeding remains the same.

Using two pure breeds to cross and produce a utility animal will produce an animal that is superior to the mean line of the two parent breeds. The offspring will be consistent and predictable.
Problems will only arise when the cross-bred is bred with IF it is bred to another similar cross-bred or to one of the parent breeds. In either case the hybrid vigour of the first cross is lost and the genetic mix is randomised with a lot of variation across the offspring. Remember Gregor Mendel's sweet peas that we all learnt about in High School Bio.
If a cross-bred is to be bred from it should be crossed to a third unrelated breed. This will maintain the vigour and consistency.
Genetic progress in breeding is best achieved by selection within a pure breed, but in the case of dogs, because the breeds carry such a high 'inbreeding coefficient' ( this is a mathematical ratio of close breeding relationship) from memory around 60% crossing is a good option to breed a utility dog.
For example Greyhounds ( which are anatomically perfect and carry no genetic faults ) cross very well with Border Collies to produce Lurchers. Such a dog could be crossed to a Staffy to produce awesome pigdogs for example.

All i will stay is buying a $1500 pup and a $150 is not necessary going to make it a better hunting dog. The time you put in makes a difference. Also you will make mistakes training your first dog. If you buy a pup try getting it young eight or ten weeks, some times getting a pup at 8 months old its already learnt habbits you dont want. Buying a older dog thats hunting can be ok but ask your self why are they getting rid of a good dog??
Get out there and enjoy the company on the hills.

I’ve owned over 50 dogs in my time so I consider myself a lucky man.
I can say that the last few posts are right on the money with cross-bred and line-bred dogs, there is an art to it, another makes mention that even with exceptional breeding and examples on the floor there is never any guarantee. I’d agree whole heartedly with this sentiment.
A good man can turn an average dog into a good dog, a good man can turn a good dog into an exceptional dog.
A person like me has done all he can to turn an exceptional dog into an average dog; luckily I’ve learnt along the way... and I’ve lived having owned one exceptional dog.
Good luck also.