Thread: Training scents

Friends dog, GSP. Been out with him a few times. Been looking for ways to focus him on deer rather than tree bears. Been wanting to get some deer scent and lace a dummy with it for him to locate & retrieve in parks etc.

Originally Posted by Munsey

You have trained to find dummy with quail wings is that going to encourage the dog to work the feather not the possums.?

No.

Breaking a dog of working possums is a separate issue

Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan

Friends dog, GSP. Been out with him a few times. Been looking for ways to focus him on deer rather than tree bears. Been wanting to get some deer scent and lace a dummy with it for him to locate & retrieve in parks etc.

I'll be shot down In flames again no doubt .? But I used deer blood from the works. You have to mix it with sodium citrate from a chemists this stops it clotting . Used blood trails ,worked the dog along the trail . Would have my deer skin up wind from the end of the trail dog would air scent I'd get him to wow if he hadn't already. Worked for my dog . Don't use the skin as a drag as this will or may encourage the dog to track the deer scent . You do not want that . The dog must track blood and not deer scent . You only want you dog to air scent deer Scent. That's my take on it in brief .

Exactly...

Dangerous Dan. A little courtesy will go a long way to having this explained in a way you can understand because at the moment you don't. Making slights about cell phones, out of ignorance won't endear you to the people trying to help you. For the record I'm a professional trainer. i am trying to make you understand that simply recognising a scent from training will do nothing to shut down the scent of other animals. Prey drive in the field will over ride that. The cell phone dog I mentioned is regarded by many as among the best springers in this country on birds so obviously that early training was not detrimental to hunting. but it sounds like you believe that by "focusing" on one scent in training you are hoping the dog will ignore other scents in work. Simply, that's ridiculous. The dog will learn through experience what scent is and how to work it, if you want it to ignore some game in the early training a simple "leave it" command lets the dog know when unwanted game has been located. Young dogs get this very quickly. Unfortunately the majority of handlers are in the field with a dog too early before such preventative training has been done and the "leave it" command or a hiding for finding a possum serves only to confuse the dog, further erode the relationship with the handler and rarely if ever stops the dog seeking the game it was reprimanded for.

If you are talking about breaking the dog on possums then the above method using the "Leave it" command will always produce a result. If your training is not solid enough to have the dog respect that when it hears and you are looking for a magic solution to shortcut that then the answer is there isn;t one... and using scent in training will not make an ounce of difference to the field behavior.

At then end of the day I have a kennel full of dogs at the moment of which two are mine. they don;t hunt possums, they are very highly regarded and well known for their ability. None of them were of have been trained using scents. So bear in mind when trying to be a smert alec that None of the dogs in my kennel have your problem, but yours or the one you hunt with does.... Good luck.

Originally Posted by Munsey

I'll be shot down In flames again no doubt .? But I used deer blood from the works. You have to mix it with sodium citrate from a chemists this stops it clotting . Used blood trails ,worked the dog along the trail . Would have my deer skin up wind from the end of the trail dog would air scent I'd get him to wow if he hadn't already. Worked for my dog . Don't use the skin as a drag as this will or may encourage the dog to track the deer scent . You do not want that . The dog must track blood and not deer scent . You only want you dog to air scent deer Scent. That's my take on it in brief .

Munsey I understand the point your are trying to make, but it assumes the dog wouldn;t have ever followed deer scent had you not this. I can categorically tell you, it would have and it probably didn;t even learn much faster as a result. I get your thought process though.

I am anti skin drags etc for most deer dogs... most dogs learn very bad habits from them and don;t learn much they wont learn while hunting under control if done right. The basic formula to train ANY gundog is to do your control work and then take it to the field. It has all the natural ability to scent and discriminate scent and tracking inherently built into it... It is only HOW it develops those abilities and our control give us the ability to channel what it learns.

Ruff this is all really good reading. I don't remember who it was that mentioned it in another thread about dogs, but if it was you I would be really interested about how to add a turn or change direction to a dog that is at distance or on a sendaway. Cheers in advanced if that is possible

Originally Posted by Dougie

Ruff this is all really good reading. I don't remember who it was that mentioned it in another thread about dogs, but if it was you I would be really interested about how to add a turn or change direction to a dog that is at distance or on a sendaway. Cheers in advanced if that is possible

In what context are ypu wanting the stop, turn or change of direction????

Like a sheep dog essentially. I have been encouraging behaviour like him slowing down and getting kind of into a stalk when he spots another dog or bird or whatever down at the beach. I'd like to control that....get him to slow down, turn to a different flank and sent away.

I do not tell him to do anything I am not confident he will react to 100% solid (if he is clearly ears turned off and running towards something, I won't call him to 'come' because I know he won't do it).

Are these the right ideas?

You're on the right track... the key isn;t encouraging what you want... it' s convincing him what you want is what he wants... now that might sound really hard, it's not, and I will elaborate if need be... but right there is the secret to really awesome dog training.... If you can create that, there is nothing you cannot achieve with a dog.

Originally Posted by Ruff

Exactly...

Dangerous Dan. A little courtesy will go a long way to having this explained in a way you can understand because at the moment you don't. Making slights about cell phones, out of ignorance won't endear you to the people trying to help you. For the record I'm a professional trainer. i am trying to make you understand that simply recognising a scent from training will do nothing to shut down the scent of other animals. Prey drive in the field will over ride that. The cell phone dog I mentioned is regarded by many as among the best springers in this country on birds so obviously that early training was not detrimental to hunting. but it sounds like you believe that by "focusing" on one scent in training you are hoping the dog will ignore other scents in work. Simply, that's ridiculous. The dog will learn through experience what scent is and how to work it, if you want it to ignore some game in the early training a simple "leave it" command lets the dog know when unwanted game has been located. Young dogs get this very quickly. Unfortunately the majority of handlers are in the field with a dog too early before such preventative training has been done and the "leave it" command or a hiding for finding a possum serves only to confuse the dog, further erode the relationship with the handler and rarely if ever stops the dog seeking the game it was reprimanded for.

If you are talking about breaking the dog on possums then the above method using the "Leave it" command will always produce a result. If your training is not solid enough to have the dog respect that when it hears and you are looking for a magic solution to shortcut that then the answer is there isn;t one... and using scent in training will not make an ounce of difference to the field behavior.

At then end of the day I have a kennel full of dogs at the moment of which two are mine. they don;t hunt possums, they are very highly regarded and well known for their ability. None of them were of have been trained using scents. So bear in mind when trying to be a smert alec that None of the dogs in my kennel have your problem, but yours or the one you hunt with does.... Good luck.

Apologies, thanks for the response, the reason I'm looking for the scent's is to apply some of the target species (deer) to the dummy. Have him locate it and reward him. Goal is have him associate the target scent with the reward and translate that into field work?

P.S one liners like "absolutely no use what-so-ever" seem just as ignorant imo ... maybe we both got off on wrong foot

Originally Posted by Ruff

You're on the right track... the key isn;t encouraging what you want... it' s convincing him what you want is what he wants... now that might sound really hard, it's not, and I will elaborate if need be... but right there is the secret to really awesome dog training.... If you can create that, there is nothing you cannot achieve with a dog.

Yup I do understand shaping and capturing, cheers Ruff

Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan

Apologies, thanks for the response, the reason I'm looking for the scent's is to apply some of the target species (deer) to the dummy. Have him locate it and reward him. Goal is have him associate the target scent with the reward and translate that into field work?

P.S one liners like "absolutely no use what-so-ever" seem just as ignorant imo ... maybe we both got off on wrong foot

Sorry if you thought they had use, which they don't, which made you believe that the product of my 35 years experience training gundogs has lead me to believe they are of no use whatsover is arrogant... I shouldn;t have to shape my answers based on your pre existing thought basis's... I'm a dog trainer not nostradfuckingdamous.

Oh yeah. the first sentence is a question I think... hate to sound arrogant but it wont work and if you want that explained read what I've already said. This rubbish people are sold on "Positive reinforcment" is a load of garbage. It's like the tax department collecting taxes by ignoring those who don;t pay and thanking those that do.... friggen lalala land.

Originally Posted by Dougie

Yup I do understand shaping and capturing, cheers Ruff

NOTHING I said has to do with shaping or capturing.

I would say that my missus responds to expensive little bottles of scent more than my dog would

Ah Ruff, gotcha. I just read how positive reinforcement doesn't fit in with your method of training. I can understand that your methods are producing effective dogs year after year, but I too beleive that the way I've trained my dogs has worked also. (Noting that my dogs have only ever been companion dogs) I am not about to be a hippee and bash your methods, don't worry

I thought what you had meant was that capturing the dog's movement then adding a cue to it. I've obviously misunderstood. I am still really interested in how to train a change in direction. From my personal research I have not found positive reinforcement techniques to teach things other than tricksreally, often most stuff isn't at a distance either which is the challenge that I am wanting to tackle and that's why I am seeking more information on different techniques.

Cheers.

PS I understand that this subject is very close to home as this is 'your thing' as such, I would not be offended if you'd rather brush me off now that you know my methods of training. It's been done before and it will be done again, each to their own I say and I will not bash my training 'bible' in anyone's face. I have seen the way that many positive reinforcemet advocates may also fall into the basket of hippee vegetarians! I can assure you I love my red steaks.