Thread: Why mixing headers and pointers?

About 30 years ago a school mate of mine used to go to Canada every year to spend 6 months looking after sheep in the Rockies. He was paid good money to take NZ working dogs over with him each trip for the farm/ranch owner, I think mainly huntaways.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Each pup will have 50% of its genetics from the directly expressed genes of the parents. So each parent contributes only 25%. The remaining 50% is made up from the genetics of the back ancestry in a fractional amount per back generation. So a pup or anything else for that matter, can display / express genes which are different to the parents and different to full siblings. Genes that were carried by the parents but not expressed. This is what explains the variation between offspring of the same parents

The sixth form ( or earlier ) lessons (erniec) focus on plants and hybrid crosses from experiments with red and white sweet peas ( Gregor Mendel ) which come out with the ratios as above

You are right I thought I did well to remember what I did , it was 1975.
Most parents appear to have some understanding when the misbehaving kid is apparently just like you.

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Originally Posted by mikee

This is true but i would argue that you are more likely to get a good dog from a breeder specialising in working dogs (pure bred or otherwise) than if you got an "spca special" or a dog from when the neighbors dog got over the other neighbors bitch.

Now i am meaning for a hunting dog not a pet here.

Personally i must be a snob in that when someone asks what breed my pooch is i can tell them with certainty "my dog is a pointer!"

yes it is more likely to be good naturally.

I have never owned a dog so can't talk about how hard it is to train a mutt to be a good deer dog. However the vet bills a pedigree sometimes have sure does make a facebook/trade me/spca special look appealing to me.

different discussion to be had regarding a mutt trained well or a pedigree trained averagely

If you go back through the posts on the pics of your dog thread, you will see our GSP /header Kelpy X ,the father is a mates fantastic Gun Dog that got over his best Farm dog, that itself came from a $10 Grand Kelpie imported from Oz ,jumping a fence .

Basically was only ever meant to be a companion to our old Lab (herself a great gun dog) & my wife while l was in the paddocks as the Lab is getting to old jumping in & out of Farm vehicles & pulls up sore after spending a day in our hilly back blocks ,the Lab got all broody & took it on as her own .

We only did basic training to start ,but the pup became obsessed with retrieving, after l would spend time playing & making a fuss of the Lab after l got home, at six months it was retrieving ducks next to the Lab . One of the Labs party tricks was while spot lighting ,she use to love riding the back of the ute or SXS & retrieve shot rabbits & drop them in a pile in the back ,all while we never had to leave the warmth of the cab. The pup started chasing the Lab out to the rabbit & hassling her all the way back ,after a few goes it started doing it as well .

After taking it into the field Deer hunting with the Lab & Vizsla ,it soon twigged onto what was wanted & now has 18 deer under its belt & from memory is not 14 months ,easily one of the easiest dogs l have ever trained which l put down to the Kelpie/Header work ethic & always wanting to please the owner ,being put to use in a hunting environment .

Originally Posted by WireWorking

If you are in Europe get yourself a griffen from hunting lines and you will have a fantastic dog, from what I have seen they seem to be a slightly slower GWP. There are a few NZ bred huntaways in Finland and a really good line of NZ Huntaways in Scotland as well as few NZ heading dogs. I personally wouldn't cross any of the herding breeds with pointing breeds,especially when you have access to well bred and proven pointers.

Griffen? Do you mean "Griffon d'arret à poil dur" (korthals)?

Originally Posted by bunji

After taking it into the field Deer hunting with the Lab & Vizsla ,it soon twigged onto what was wanted & now has 18 deer under its belt & from memory is not 14 months ,easily one of the easiest dogs l have ever trained which l put down to the Kelpie/Header work ethic & always wanting to please the owner ,being put to use in a hunting environment .

Read a lot about the use of Vizslas and mixes with them in NZ. Whats the advantage with a Vizla compared to other pointers usead for deerhunting?

Originally Posted by Efalk

Read a lot about the use of Vizslas and mixes with them in NZ. Whats the advantage with a Vizla compared to other pointers usead for deerhunting?

I can't speak for the ability of the Vizsla in the field yet, but having bought my first one (now just over 7 months old) I have found him to be: a) a bit of a very amusing clown like character when he is "off duty" and, b) very keen to please and quite biddable/trainable. Also, I don't know if it is the breed generally or just this individual but he is also an intelligent animal who quickly figures things out. Having had a number of dogs over the years for various purposes I rate this one very highly and have great expectations of him.

Originally Posted by Efalk

Read a lot about the use of Vizslas and mixes with them in NZ. Whats the advantage with a Vizla compared to other pointers usead for deerhunting?

Vizlas feel the cold - badly

So if I understand you guys right the advantage with a mixed breed between a pointing dog and a heerding/heading is that it gets easier to handel and in training? Don´t you get any problem with them chasing sheep and stock?

Originally Posted by Efalk

So if I understand you guys right the advantage with a mixed breed between a pointing dog and a heerding/heading is that it gets easier to handel and in training? Don´t you get any problem with them chasing sheep and stock?

Any breed of dog is capable of stock chasing or worrying. Have used a Border Collie- Strong eyed heading dog for 13 years as a deer dog, part time pig dog. Been around sheep- cattle all her life, never shown any inclination to chase, was hard to get to walk thru sheep in a confined area, from her early days was taught stock was not her.

Originally Posted by tetawa

Any breed of dog is capable of stock chasing or worrying. Have used a Border Collie- Strong eyed heading dog for 13 years as a deer dog, part time pig dog. Been around sheep- cattle all her life, never shown any inclination to chase, was hard to get to walk thru sheep in a confined area, from her early days was taught stock was not her.

Are Border Collies hard enough mentally to go after pigs?

Originally Posted by Efalk

Are Border Collies hard enough mentally to go after pigs?

She was, smart enough to bail only, but was a very hard healing dog.

Originally Posted by Efalk

So if I understand you guys right the advantage with a mixed breed between a pointing dog and a heerding/heading is that it gets easier to handel and in training? Don´t you get any problem with them chasing sheep and stock?

@Efalk There is no short answer to that so here goes.

Any properly trained dog should never be a problem around any animal you do not wish them to to target . We just got back to the homestead after a night of Spotlighting a neighbor's farm to help get their Rabbit/Hares number down & my GSP/Huntaway/Kelpie pup just retrieved 14 rabbits while we were spot lighting around paddocks full of sheep ,often quietly deliberately working its way around them with out disturbing them to bring the rabbits back ,later today it will be helping my Farm dogs move our own sheep .

In game rich environment's like we hunt in here in NZ ,you can have a variety of Upland Game as well as pigs , goats etc seen/encountered while hunting Deer for example ,so any dog needs to be trained to the point where they only focus on what you want them to hunt at the time . If you go back through my posts ,on a recent hunt my brother was along on a hunt & he wanted to try for a big ,one eyed Boar we had encountered while hunting Deer ,my wife & l both took a Deer each, with both my Vizsla & my Huntaway /GSP X scenting, tracking & pointing one each in the morning & then once we were back at the area the pig had been encountered ,after we found a spot the pigs had been turning over the soil, l was able to get both the dogs switched on through reward & praise ,to the fact l now wanted them to scent for pigs & they both successfully locked on & pointed them for us ,so my brother could get a nice one .

In my experience with a wide variety of "Gun Dog" breeds what the Huntaway/Header/kelpie etc X bring is not the fact they are "easy " to train in the first instance ,but that it comes about because they want to please you as the leader the pack more . My old man ran Cattle on the farm l grew up on & supplemented the Farm income by breeding & training working dogs & him & my uncle were renowned for it & large Australian Pastoral companies would pay them to go across with their dogs ,train existing station dogs & stockmen & purchase selected dogs from them at a premium . They both always theorized that the working breeds/blood lines we used, still displayed strong instincts from Wolves & the whole reason a good dog wants to please & push the stock to their pack leader, was from the wolves pack leaders , sharing the kill with the pack, l have a mate in Alaska who competes at the highest level in the Sled Dog scene & supplies proven dogs to other competitors & they display very similar characteristics .

What most people do not understand about Farms/Cattle Stations / Ranches with really good working dogs ,is it is not only the Dogs that are trained, but the stock as well & a good stockman (particularly with Cattle ) keeps a nucleus of stock that are comfortable with being worked by dogs & what is actually happening when you see good stock handling by dogs, is the dogs are trying to push the stock to their owner & the owner is controlling & actually blocking their herding , so the stock moves in the direction he wants ,not the way the dog wants & very importantly the stock knows the owner will protect them & keep the dogs physical harassments to a minimum if they respond by moving in the direction wanted .

In places like Australia where there huge Cattle/Sheep " Stations " are as large as some European countries ,since the Second World War planes fitted with sirens were used to round up cattle & sheep & move them the huge distances ,then after the Korean war Helicopters came into favor & they were used heavily right up till the last decade .What was found was they had generations of stock that were triggered into flight or fight mode at any disturbance & it had a measurable effect on weight gain, handling & quality ,so for around the last Decade working dogs are being used more & more replacing helicopters, ringers ,stockmen, staff etc & leading to much calmer & healthier stock .

Good working dogs because of the "wanting to please the leader" trait are revolutionizing the industry with new paddock designs where curved boundaries/fencing is now being put in so dogs can move stock with little close input & they are replacing huge numbers of staff & cutting staff & equipment numbers dramatically across the board , saving Station owners Millions every year ,this in turn means a good Kelpie for example goes for around $14/20K plus & really good lines easily double that .

I have always trained all my dogs along the same lines my old man & uncle use to train their working dogs, which was to capitalize on this "please the pack leader " trait & for me too many people over think it & instead of using the dogs natural instinct of wanting to work with & please the "leader" ,they either try to crush the dogs confidence thinking they are showing it who is boss & end up with a stressed out dog constantly in Fight or Flight mode , or treat it like a spoilt baby & then wonder why it thinks it is the leader & does what it wants .

All my dogs from the start are never yelled at, in fact l normally speak to them in a quieter tone than l normally speak ,even working our stock ,so they know to listen & pay attention ,there is no yelling ,whistling ,clapping etc etc while in the field hunting ,all the last thing you want from any hunting partner ,so l have no idea why some think it is a good idea with a dog & IMO comes out of " impressing" at field trials etc & letting dogs take control by ranging too far ahead, while l was guiding around the world all the best dog handlers in the field l watched did the same ,even with Leopard dogs & Sambar Hounds .

The dogs are taught from day one that hand signals rule & this also leads to them paying much more attention to you & performing as you want in the field ,a lot of the times now they actually watch my facial movement's & respond, so for example if we are in thick bush close in on a animal & l have my gun up & ready a point of the chin will send them in the direction l want, or a nod or shake of the head giving the wanted yay or nay response .Again look back to my earlier posts & you will see pics of my Vizsla scenting a unseen deer across a river crossing ,just before that picture, as we were scenting the deer trail along the river bank a couple of ducks were swimming in a back eddy a shot distance from where the Viz was heading ,all it took was a quick look back at me & me shaking my head for them to be totally ignored .Us & our dogs regularly creep up within feet of game , we caught a goat kid by hand, by doing just that a couple of weeks ago & we bring home a lot more game by doing our hunting silently & on our terms not the dogs ,all from reaffirming the pleasing the pack leaders mentality & enabling that to make the training easier not the other way around .

@Efalk Also meant to add (but archaic forum system will not allow) while l guided & hunted in Spain in the Catalonia region ,the very Old School Hunting parties used a dog very similar in appearance , temperament & hunting style to our Huntaway's & l have actually tossed around importing them ,have a look at the weirdly named Transylvanian Hound ,which is actually a Hungarian breed that used to be favored by their Royalty back in the Middle Ages when Transylvania was part of Hungary . They are a fantastic dog to hunt over & l personally took Deer , Red-Legged Partridges & wild Boar with them ,much the same wide ranging hunting "adaptability " our own Huntaway's show & rather than getting another Vizsla these are far more " robust " Hungarian hunting dog .

Thank you VERY much Bunji for your detailed reply. Very interesting and thought making. I’m very familiar with most dog breeds in Europe but never heard of the Transylvanian Hound. Interesting! When I now read about it I would have though of it as more of an independent hunting dog compared to your Huntaways? If I understand things right people in NZ hunt with them because of there will to please and not because they find, chase and then bay the game?